Dennis Smith
6/21/10
NK 6
Interview Blog
The subject of my research was Reaganomics. Since this topic can get very heated between people with differing opinions, I thought that I would interview people from both ends of the spectrum. I think that this gave some balance and perspective as to why people did or did not support Reagan’s policies. Finally I interviewed my uncle, who was an important businessman at the time. I was hoping that this would give perspective as to the point of view of a businessperson experiencing the tax cuts and other reforms of Reaganomics.
Dennis Smith
6/17/2010
Interview #1
Reaganomics interview with my Dad, Brian Smith
Interview on 6/4/2010
I interviewed my dad, Brian Smith. At the time of my topic, he was in his early 20’s as a young college student in Greeley, Colorado. He is fairly conservative and is a staunch supporter of supply-side economics. We currently live in Seattle, WA.
Me: As a young man during the 1980’s, did you observe any changes in the economic climate at the time?
Dad: Absolutely. At the time I did not have much money, and during the Carter administration I could barely afford gas. It was really nice to have such big tax breaks as well. It made it a lot easier just to afford food, gas, and my apartment, especially in the early 80’s while I was in college in Greeley, Colorado. I think that the tax breaks greatly helped a lot of Americans as it ushered in a lot of growth over the 1980’s.
Me: Did you approve of the plan to shrink government size through lower taxes and supple-side economics?
Dad: Yes. All throughout the 60’s and 70’s there was way too much government involvement in the economy. Clearly Big Government wasn’t working in the 1970’s, so I was excited to see a more free market occur in the 1980’s. I think it was very successful for both individual citizens and for the government. The lower taxes increased individual income, which often pushed people into the next tax bracket. Since people made more money, they could pay more in taxes, and returns were high despite the tax cuts. It worked all around I think.
Me: What were your opinions on the increase in defense budget during Reagan’s administration?
Dad: It was thanks to Reagan’s defense spending that we won the Cold War. His tax cuts bolstered our economy, which let us afford to produce more weapons. We lead innovation with the most advanced weapons on Earth. Our Harrier Jets and B-2 bombers were unmatched. The Soviets were clearly falling behind in weapons development and production. They had to give up and admit defeat or try to keep up with us. They tried, but they economy, which was supporting many wars and Communist nations, could not keep up. They couldn’t afford the expansion in the arms race, so their economy collapsed upon itself. It was a unique way of fighting the war, but Reagan won, so I would definitely approve of his spending policies.
Me: Do you think Reaganomics would be successful today?
Dad: I definitely think that it couldn’t hurt, but it could use a little tweaking. With our current recession, I think that tax breaks would be very beneficial. At this time it would decrease government revenue, but that could be made up by selling public industries, such as the liquor stores in Washington State. I think that even now, a more free market economy would work very well.
Dennis Smith
6/17/2010
Interview #2
Reaganomics Interview with my Aunt, Mary Pottier
Interview on 6/11/201
I interviewed my Aunt, Mary Potteir. She is now 59, and at the time of my topic, was a taxpayer living in the United States during her early 30’s. She is very liberal in is very opposed to the economic policies enacted in the 1980’s. She currently lives Vancouver, BC.
Me: Living in the 1980’s, did you think that the tax cuts, which were central to Reaganomics, were beneficial to the economy at the time?
Mary: I think that it was a very shortsighted plan. While giving tax breaks to the public quickly increased revenue, it significantly lowered government revenue. Also the tax breaks mostly benefitted the rich while giving a larger tax burden to the poor. I will admit that it was nice to have more money, but I knew that the whole process was only hurting the nation. I think in general we needed a strong government at the time, especially with the Cold War going on at the time. A laissez-faire economy could easily fail, and free market policies led to the Great Depression, which would have been fatal during the Cold War. Mostly, the tax cuts were of little help to the nation and weakened the government at a critical point.
Me: What do you think of the increase in defense spending during Reagan’s two terms in office?
Mary: I think that he was a warmonger and it was a complete waste of money. Not only did it break détente, but it really re-ignited the conflict again, especially in Afghanistan. We spent so much money on weapons and nukes that we could destroy the entire world hundreds of times. Reagan just wanted to look like he was stronger than the Soviets, but he just looked like a violent and immature leader.
Me: So you would not credit Reagan with winning the Cold War?
Mary: Absolutely not. I would say he actually jeopardized our chances of peace in the early 80’s by breaking détente and producing weapons again. He even poised us for failure by lowering tax revenue in case we needed a really strong government if things got worse. Reagan just got to watch as the Soviet Union collapsed under its own weight. If anyone was the good guy here, it was Gorbachev. He realized that there were problems with their system, and slowed the warring as a result. He also allowed people to express their opinions of the Soviet Union through Glasnost. While the Cold War ended because the Soviet Union fell apart, I would probably credit the victory to Mikhail Gorbachev. Reagan was just a witness.
Me: Do you think that supply-side economics would work to day, especially during our current recession.
Mary: Absolutely not. Free market got us in this mess. It allowed for irresponsible and unregulated corporations to take advantage of the system and send us into a recession. Now we need a stronger government than ever, and taxes will fund the institutions that will lift us out of the recession. Reaganomics would be an absolute bust today, even more than it was in the 1980’s.
Dennis Smith
6/17/2010
Interview #3
Reaganomics Interview with my Uncle, Warren Franklin
For my third interview, I talked to my uncle, Warren Franklin. At the time of my topic he was working at Lucasfilm and experiencing firsthand the economic changes for business during Reaganomics. By the late 1980s, he was one of two Vice-Presidents of Lucasfilm. He now lives in Vancouver, BC as the CEO of Rainmaker Studios. He originally moved to British Columbia because they offered many tax benefits to the movie industry as an enticement for studios to move there.
Me: Being that you were the VP of a major movie studio during the tax cuts and free market economy of Reaganomics, how did that affect your industry?
Warren: The tax cuts helped majorly with film budget and revenue from a major release. We kept far more of the income from the second and third Star Wars films because of the lowered taxes. It was amazing working on those films, and it was great to see the difference from the first movie to the second and third. The better economy overall made it much easier to produce the movies and for people to enjoy them.
Me: Do you feel this way, despite the knowledge that the decrease in taxes lowered government size and tax revenue?
Warren: I know that this occurred, but the economic plans enacted at the time clearly worked. Business was booming at the time and I don’t think that it was necessary to have Big Government if business was doing just fine without it. I supported Big Government before, and I was not a fan of Reagan’s weapon stockpiling, but I think that what he did at the time for the economy was really good.
Me: So you disapprove of the stockpiling of weapons in the arms race against Russia?
Warren: Yes. I know that we were in the Cold War, and defense spending is natural, but such a large increase in the defense budget is unnecessary and reckless. I think that what was done for our economy was great, and that should have been the focus. Rather than spending more on weapons, maybe he could have used the improved economy to help the homeless or impoverished. I don’t think that it was the best plan, but I think that I can live with it considering the bolstered economy.
Me: Do you think that Reaganomics would be successful today?
Warren: To some degree, yes. From a business perspective, tax cuts are almost always good. It allowed for increased revenue and less money loss in taxes. I would really appreciate this nowadays, but I think that privatizing public industries is unnecessary. I also think that a bigger government could be beneficial to help us out of the recession, but business tax breaks could really help the affordability of small and startup businesses which are a great help to the economic health. I think that some aspects of Reaganomics would be a great help today, but we could definitely do without the defense buildup.
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Showing posts with label Cold War. Show all posts
Showing posts with label Cold War. Show all posts
The Guatemalan Civil War, Kalia Hobbs
Kalia Hobbs
AP World History
My topic within the greater Cold War is the Guatemalan Civil War. To see what the interviews are about and get a little background information about the people I interviewed, please see introductions below : )
-INTRODUCTIONS-
Mario Flores and Aurelio Hernandez are both men I met in Antigua, Guatemala. They are the Guatemalan program directors for Global Visionaries, a social justice and global leadership program that connects high school students in Seattle to high school students in Guatemala. The Seattle youth go to Guatemala and participate in work groups with the Chapin youth to better the situations of people in their country. I went on this trip last spring, volunteered in a hospital there, and met Mario and Aurelio who coordinate everything on the Guatemalan side of the program. They are both in their thirties. I know Oscar Garcia and Sandra Ordonez from the same program trip to Guatemala. They both are in their twenties and work for the program as youth leaders that helped us through our experiences in Antigua and the outskirts. Sandra Ordonez is actually one of my best friends and she is here in Seattle for a year, being a part of Earth Corps. I’m interviewing all of them about their personal and their family’s experiences and perspectives through the Guatemalan Civil War. They were all in Guatemala during the duration of the time they were alive and the war was still going on.
-INTERVIEWS-
-MARIO FLORES-
My first memory about this time were one night, my father was a professor and was teaching at night, that particular day I was like 7 year old when a bomb near a electric tower shouted the power for like an hour, I was really scared, wondering about my father, not knowing really what was going on, and not sure if he was going to come back home, at that time, teachers, professors, open minded people were at risk to be eliminated by the government. I was lucky because my entire family is from Easter Guatemala, were the war didn’t hit to much, the most affected area was western Guatemala (the high lands were the majority of the Mayan communities are).
My memory isn’t that good, because the were the worse of the war was happened, I was 4 or 5 years, I do remember once when I was in 3er grade there was a pacific demonstration in front of my school, that ended up with the police using tear gas and killing some people, we got in the basement of the school waiting for our families to pick us up.
The hardest part was that my father was a well know human right supporter, among our group of family friends, there were a few that decided to support the civil movement that at that time were call guerrilleros, (communist) a lot of friends ended up leaving the country because their lives were in danger, by the government.
Personally I think that the conditions that started the war In the first time, hasn’t changed, and even though that for my family and I we are able to walk around easily. I know that for a lot of Guatemalans in the rural areas the struggle continues. Not much difference in lifestyle from now, a few rich people and a lot of poverty , and now is pretty much the same, without the difference that now, you have a feeling of not being in war.
My experience of the war was since I was born up to when I was 15 year olds with the worse part when I was 4 to 5 years old. To be hones I thought that was going to be a normal person, again I was in a private school in Guatemala city , and wasn’t exposed to it as much as someone kid of my same age from the highlands.
I know that my father hosted guerilla fighters in his home in the city, before he get married, and also organizing school teacher to get in “Sindicatos” ( unions) Yea of cures I was worried that my father and family were going to be killed.
Can’t answer whether I think anything good came out of the war, because I think that there were a lot of lives that ended and no change was made; because in my opinion as a different of what happened in el Salvador the groups of power in this country didn’t share the power at all, and the conditions are pretty much the same.
The worst part was the not knowing when my father or family were going to be killed just because they were educated and opponents of the dictator’s governments.
-SANDRA ORDONEZ-
Well they told me that when the guerrillas arrived in San Antonio Aguas Calientes was very difficult for my parents because all the villagers had to travel to Antigua to go buy the market because there is no market in San Antonio. But it was very difficult to leave the village and one day my parents had to go to old to take my brother to the hospital because he was very sick and were out the guerrillas and the bus fell. They said they had to return to the park because they wanted to talk to all the people and my parents said they had to go to hospital, but can not leave the people returned to the park and listened to the guerrillas. They said they were in favor of the poor and only wanted food and did not say anything to the military when they reached the village after the talks that were forcing everyone to go home and could not talk to anyone and in each block two guerrillas were seeing that all people would live to their homes. They had like 5 minutes after arrived at my parents house when they heard shots in the mountains. They were scared and then when they knocked on the door but was so afraid to open the door and they were the soldiers who were coming from house to house because they thought that guerrillas were hiding in the houses and the soldiers entered the house and moved all things and asked who had said the guerrillas, but my dad told them that they had not gone to hear the talk of the guerrillas because they had a sick child, then to see that there was nothing in the house were my parents were wondering where the guerrillas were gone because the military came very fast, and my dad that the military has killed many children in the mountains because they were all farmers and had their crops and had to work but the military thought that the peasants were in that place to see all the people and tell the guerrillas that the military was getting into town and for that reason they were killed. Some children will die because Lifeguard Mountain dropped because they were killed like animals or with large sticks were beaten on the head to see that the child was dying or just cut their heads with machetes.
And they say that was very difficult life in that time because they knew who were good and that really helped the poor and also all the people could not leave their homes after 6 pm was a government order and if the military found someone on the street after 6 killed. Many people died because they had the need to go to buy something to eat in small shops and this not only happened in my town was all over the country and if they wanted go somewhere else had to carry their documents where there is no military documents and take them became part of the army, and many young people were part of the army but did not want to kill them otherwise.
-OSCAR GARCIA-
What little I remember because at that time I was about 6, 7, 8, or 9 years was very young and older people listened fearful that at some point the gerrilla or military showed up at the mountain since most of Abitante in that time were farmers and had their crops on the slopes of the volcano of water so they feared that some of these the aserles threatened to harm without giving them no food or water.
My family in this time of Gerra and lived in this town called San Pedro Las Huertas. Thank God in this part of the country not suffered much as in the departments of Quiche Totonicapan Chichicastemango and others but always my parents and other community members were very fearful.
My family not affected horribly but was left as in many Guatemalan families fear to see an armed soldier or a person because it doesn’t matter if it is good or bad person you’re going to protect, you will get hurt.
You've got a big fear and I think the time been blurred a little this fear.
One of the hard part now that I think my family is that at that time the army of Guatemala took to the streets of the town in specific areas at 7 pm or so and if they found a man who had an average age of 17 and 40 years they caught him and put it in trucks that transported them to where they were all soldiers and then trained to use arms when necessary to serves the country supposedly against guerrillas.
All this without the consent of parents or wives to people who had families, because the army does not care about this then I remember that all had to carry their identification that here in Guatemala are called identity card.
The concern in my family because my brother was bigger now 36 years, worked at the time of bread (to pan) then working at night and worked in Antigua so every night my mom was worried because people every morning the people said that a son or a father that came to the army.
Of the events I can remember one is that we were always hoping that my father returned from work because it is a farmer and was also afraid that my brother who at the time I was about 17 or 18 years it could lead the army. The lifestyle of the economic point of view I think it has changed a lot because it is having your shortage for most of the country and all the money that was spent for this war could better serve to feed many people and a very good idea. Hahaha food, but I think many people remain poor because the war he killed the parent or parents and destroyed their home or their harvest and troubled to start from scratch.
-AURELIO HERNANDEZ-
My family during the war was living in the same please where we leave now. The hard parts for my family and me was when I wanted to be free and the army said NO everything than my parents said. I remember when the army and the guerrilla was together nearby my village, was available to hear and see how they killed within them. The end of the war was important because we had a little development after that. During the war was a affair life, no free to talk about, after the war we can see and feel the development and more democracy
A normal day was to go to study and be care for the army, because the was under the streets watching youth to take and be part of the army. The war was from when I was 0 to 24 years old. At those ages I felt that my life was going to be terrible, watching many war events, people kill and people die. Everybody was trying to get the paz
Off course I did worry, and the most worry for me was the education specially for my education because on this time I was in the middle of my education process
There are many good things from the war but one of many is that now I really know why the wars happen and who is the author, or who are the people involved, because in the majorities of the wars same peoples are the responsible.
For me the worst part of the war was when I knew that one of my classmate was in the army and he was killed.
I remember many things, especially when the army caught me to be part of the army. My experience when the army caught me was a fear experience. I remember that day was Friday, I went to study like a normal day, when I leaved from the school I usually walked around 20 blocks from the school to take the bus to go back to my house at 7:00 p.m. I went with one of my best friend from the school, when we crossed the street because on the other side was the bus waiting for us, we saw the soldiers walking in our direction behind us and we started to run and tried to come in to the bus but just my friend get to be in the bus one of the soldiers caught me from my feet, my friend said to me “do not worry I am going to go to your house and let you parents know that the army caught you” because we did not have phone in our houses, then the army put me in a truck to go to the government office in Antigua Guatemala when I had to say all my personal description like name, age, occupation, etc. my house is located 5 kilometers away from Antigua and at 6:30 p.m. is the last bus from my village to Antigua you can imagine what my parents do to com to Antigua to see me because around 11:00 pm. My parents was outside of the government office just to say “son, we will do the impossible because you do not have to be in the army” then the army put me again in another big truck to go another place (military base) 20 kilometer away from Antigua Guatemala, I do not know how my parents came back home at this time 11:30 p.m. from Antigua (5 kilometers) they really love me because they did a lot things for me. So when I arrived to the military base the soldiers called us (a group of 50 youth) welcome to your house this is the man house, we did sleep that day because we was fear, at 5:00 a.m. one soldier said “wake up, is time to shower” cold water, everybody together, etc. then we went to take breakfast we make a big line because in this military base there was more youth from everywhere. During the day (Saturday) I saw many soldiers around without arms, feet, eye, etc. and some soldier said this is happened for your country, because they love their country (Guatemala) I was more fear with this….. during the night same thing, big line to take food. Next day around 2:00 p.m. the principal from the army called me and asked me “do you love your country? I said YES, do you want to serve to your country? I said YES, do you want to be part of the Army? I said NO, he asked why, I said because I am studding and I want to finished my school, and he said, you should study here and finished your school with us……. Etc. etc. but I said the type of education that I want is different and I would like to go back to my village, my school, my house, my family etc. then around 5:00 p.m. he said OK go outside but no walking, you have to go like a frog (for 5 blocks) at the entrance was my parents waiting for me without eat breakfast and lunch it was very sad, they (my parents) was making a lot things like contact the principal from my school on weekend, without phone numbers, without address of him…. Etc. I cannot believe what others things they did, because they wanted me back….
-REFLECTIONS-
1) What surprised you in these interviews?
Something that Mario told me before was that his father almost joined the guerilla which is really surprising. He remembers his father mulling over the decision and ultimately choosing to focus on his own family and taking care of his wife and children rather than trying to take care of the whole country of Guatemala. Something that he told me a long time ago was that, even ten years ago, you could still be killed for talking about the civil war. It was, and is, a very, very sensitive topic. Talking with him about it last year, when my group was in Guatemala, made him feel very uncomfortable and nervous because it was still such a fresh topic. I don’t feel like there’s anything in the United States that I fear having a conversation about and so this was an entirely new thought process for me. And it really hit home that he worries about talking about the Guatemalan Civil War due to his safety. It made the war feel so much closer. Which it is – it ended in 1996. Another incredibly surprising thing, from Aurelio’s interview, is that he was caught by the army but ended up getting away. This is such a rare occurrence that I was completely caught off guard and asked him follow up questions about his experience with that. I think the overall regular experiences and sights of the war were surprising, although somewhat expected from what I know of the Guatemalan Civil War.
2) How does what they experienced match – or differ from – what you read in the historical context?
My interviews and what I researched for the historical context definitely seems to match up. Everyone’s personal experience makes the war so much more “real” to me though. I read about all the disappearances, atrocities, killings, etc. but hearing stories from people who I know well and their experiences makes me even more sympathetic and interested in the topic. It seems like a not very well known topic but I truly enjoy learning as much as I can about it because it helps me gain a better idea of why Guatemala is the way it is.
3) If you were to expand this project, who else would be valuable to talk with? What other perspectives would you want to include?
If I was able to expand this project and had more time, I would want to talk with this Guatemalan man that I know in Seattle. He is a little bit older and was living in a Mayan village so I feel like his experience might be more intense. The issue was communication, because his English and my Spanish are both not skilled enough. He also works a lot and didn’t have time. I would also want to find someone that had a distinct role in the civil war. I think that the people I interviewed were very much so affected by the war, but they didn’t have a role in making it better or worse necessarily. I think that talking to someone in the Guerilla or talking to a CIA from the United States would be interesting. But I think the biggest problem is that the CIA tries to deny a lot of their involvement by whiting out certain government documents and such that have to do with Guatemala. So, I really doubt that someone from the CIA would talk to me.
4) What would you have wanted to do differently? Questions you should have asked, different people to interview, etc.
I don’t have any regrets that I could have controlled. I would have liked to interview in person but that just was not an option in any of the cases of the people who I interviewed.
5) In what ways do these interviews shed light on the giant worldwide topic of the Cold War?
These interviews are a personal perspective window and look into the effects of the Civil War and the giant worldwide topic of the Cold War because all these stories are a direct outcome of the communism vs. non-communism movements and rivalries going on around the world. The killings, pain, fear, and atrocities are all things that happened in Guatemala, but really, it was the rest of the world who was so concerned about communism. Mario touches briefly on the differences between the Guerilla and the government (Communist vs. non-communist), and the stories overall reflect the bigger, worldwide issue.
-HISTORICAL CONTEXT-
The United States got involved with the Guatemalan Civil war, which began in 1960 and ended in 1996, with the main goal of stopping the growth of communism in the world. It was the United States government who originally came up with a plan to stop the guerilla through the CIA and with the financial help from the United Fruit Company (Wikipedia, “Guatemalan Civil War”). The United Fruit Company was a constant support throughout the war for the Guatemalan government, siding against the Mayans and guerilla. In the 1950’s, the U.S. helped with the overthrow of the democratically elected president in response to Nicaragua’s request for assistance (Doyle, Kornbluh, “CIA and Assassinations: The Guatemala 1954 Documents”, par. 9). The Guatemalan leader had communist tendencies which caused worry in nearby countries. The United States was more than delighted to help changing Guatemala’s political direction by assisting them in taking the president out of power. The United States was committed to countering the spread of communism and sent military support. Declassified CIA documents prove that the United States was a fundamental component in organizing, funding, and equipping the 1954 coup which toppled Guatemala's democratically elected government (Doyle, “The Guatemalan Military: What the U.S. Files Reveal”, par. 6). Professor of History, Stephen G. Rabe, writes in his book The Americas, "In destroying the popularly elected government of Jacobo Arbenz Guzman (1950-1954), the United States initiated a nearly four-decade-long cycle of terror and repression.”
The Guatemalan Civil War was part of the greater Cold War. There were tensions throughout the world with communist versus non-communist; the United States was trying to stop the spread (Doyle and Osorio, “U.S. Policy in Guatemala, 1966-1996”, par. 1, 4, 5, 6, 7, 9). The civil war in Guatemala was 36 years long ("Geography and Map of Guatemala."). Guatemala was filled with enormous injustice, torture, killings, disappearances, and more that ruined the lives of young and old alike, much of which was at the United States fault (Doyle, “The Guatemalan Military: What the U.S. Files Reveal”, par. 6).
The first phase of this war, in the 1950’s and 60’s, was the government against “middle class intellectuals and students”. This group was considered meek in comparison to the Guatemalan army who had been trained by the U.S. Army Trainers and the CIA. The second phase was in the 1960’s and was when “young officers and students of Guatemala’s Military School” started the official guerilla organization. Previous to the third phase, most of the violence stayed in the countryside, however when the third phase came in the 1970’s – there was fighting all throughout Guatemala, in cities and countryside. The fourth phase, in the 1980’s and on, is what changed Guatemala forever. This was a “phase of total war” where the Mayan population was especially targeted by the Guatemalan military (Wikipedia, “Guatemalan Civil War”). There were “countless massacres of Mayans, disappearances, and extrajudicial killings.” (Blanton, “The CIA in Latin America”, par. 9). Tactics and strategy were almost exclusively led by the U.S., based in the Panama Canal Zone. United States supported the government while Cuba and other communist states supported the guerilla (Wikipedia, “Guatemalan Civil War”).
Four main left wing guerilla groups (The Guerilla Army of the Poor, The Revolutionary Organization of Armed People, the Rebel Armed Forces, and the Guatemalan Labor Party) came together to form the Guatemalan National Revolutionary Unity in 1982, during the fourth phase of the war (Wikipedia, “Guatemalan Civil War”). During the same period as the union of the main left wing groups, extreme right wing groups tortured and murdered students, professionals, and peasants suspected of involvement with the guerilla. There were brutal assaults on civilian population. Tactics and strategy were almost exclusively led by the U.S., based in the Panama Canal Zone. United States supported the government while Cuba and other communist states supported the guerilla. The definition of a proxy war is a war that results when opposing powers use third parties as substitutes for fighting each other directly. With the United States on the government side and Cuba and others supporting the rebels, it seems reasonable to say this was a cold war proxy war with Cuba and the U.S. working through other areas and means to get at each other.
The war went on and on, with leaders coming in and out of power, and most Guatemalans needing to make the choice between the guerilla and the government.
By the end of the war, 200,000 people had been killed. The Guatemalan Civil War is described in the report of the Archbishop’s Office for Human Rights. “The office attributed almost 90% of the atrocities and over 400 massacres to the Guatemalan army (and paramilitary), and less than 5% of the atrocities to the guerillas (including 16 massacres).”
In a different report in 1999, it was stated that the government was responsible for 93% of the humans rights violations committed during the war and the guerillas were responsible for 3%. 83% of the victims were Mayan.
“Victims were not only deprived of their liberty arbitrarily, but they were almost always subjected to interrogation, accompanied by torture and cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment. In the majority of cases, the detainees were disappeared or executed.”
The civilians were victims of the acts of the government more often than the guerilla itself. The guerillas goal throughout the war was to fight back against the injustices, discrimination, and lack of opportunity that the Mayan people were faced with. The government wanted complete control and to make sure that the country didn’t turn communist.
The Humans Rights Watch has described the actions by the armed forces, mostly against unarmed civilians. For example, there was the massacre of over 160 civilians by military soldiers in the village of Las Dos Erres in 1982. The abuses included “burying some alive in the village well, killing infants by slamming their heads against walls, keeping young women alive to be raped over the course of three days. This was not an isolated incident. Rather it was one of over 400 massacres documented by the truth commission – some of which, according to the commission, constituted "acts of genocide."” (Wikipedia, “Guatemalan Civil War”). By the end of the war, 200,000 people had been killed, 40,000 disappeared, and around 1,000,000 refugees ("Geography and Map of Guatemala."; Doyle, Ball, Byrne, Manuel, “Guatemalan Death Squad Dossier: Internal Military Log Reveals Fate of 183 “Disappeared””, Par. 4). The Guatemalan Civil War lasted from 1960-1996, but the effects live on in noticeable ways today. Starting in the 1980’s, Guatemala started working towards more democratic politics. Democratic elections occurred in 1995. The peace process started in 1994 and the government and the guerilla signed agreements about human rights, the resettlement of people who had been displaced, the rights of the indigenous, and more (Doyle, “The Guatemalan Military: What the U.S. Files Reveal”, par. 1, 7; Short, “The International Politics of Post-Conflict Reconstruction in Guatemala”, Page 77, 78). Both the rebel organizations and the government signed documents declaring peace and ending the 36-year war in 1996 ("Geography and Map of Guatemala."; Short, “The International Politics of Post-Conflict Reconstruction in Guatemala”, Page 86). It seems that after over 30 years, it was decided by all that there had to be a stop. This terrible war has changed Guatemala forever. People still live in fear of violence and there are people who will be traumatized throughout the rest of their lives from the atrocities they experienced during the war (Short, “The International Politics of Post-Conflict Reconstruction in Guatemala”, Page 87). The Guatemalan Civil War is something never forgotten by the people of Guatemala because of the impact it still has today.
-BIBLIOGRAPHY-
"Geography and Map of Guatemala." Geography Home Page - Geography at About.com. Web. 16 June 2010..
"Guatamala." St. John's College, University of British Columbia (UBC), Residential Graduate College. Web. 16 June 2010..
"Guatemalan Civil War." Wikipedia, the Free Encyclopedia. Web. 16 June 2010..
"Electronic Briefing Books." The George Washington University. Web. 16 June 2010..
Blanton, Tom. "Electronic Briefing Book: The CIA in Latin America." The George Washington University. Web. 16 June 2010..
Cook, Garrett W. Renewing the Maya World: Expressive Culture in a Highland Town. Austin: University of Texas, 2000. 118-121. Print.
Doyle, Kate. "The Guatemalan Military: What the U.S. Files Reveal." The George Washington University. Web. 16 June 2010..
Doyle, Kate, Patrick Ball, Hugh Byrne, and Anne Manuel. "1999/05/20." The George Washington University. Web. 16 June 2010..
Doyle, Kate, and Carlos Osorio. The George Washington University. Web. 16 June 2010..
Doyle, Kate, and Peter Kornbluh. "Guatemala '54." The George Washington University. Web. 16 June 2010..
Manz, Beatriz. Paradise in Ashes: a Guatemalan Journey of Courage, Terror, and Hope. Berkeley: University of California, 2004. 1-33. Print.
Short, Nicola. The International Politics of Post-conflict Reconstruction in Guatemala. New York: Palgrave Macmillan, 2007. 72-90. Print.
AP World History
My topic within the greater Cold War is the Guatemalan Civil War. To see what the interviews are about and get a little background information about the people I interviewed, please see introductions below : )
-INTRODUCTIONS-
Mario Flores and Aurelio Hernandez are both men I met in Antigua, Guatemala. They are the Guatemalan program directors for Global Visionaries, a social justice and global leadership program that connects high school students in Seattle to high school students in Guatemala. The Seattle youth go to Guatemala and participate in work groups with the Chapin youth to better the situations of people in their country. I went on this trip last spring, volunteered in a hospital there, and met Mario and Aurelio who coordinate everything on the Guatemalan side of the program. They are both in their thirties. I know Oscar Garcia and Sandra Ordonez from the same program trip to Guatemala. They both are in their twenties and work for the program as youth leaders that helped us through our experiences in Antigua and the outskirts. Sandra Ordonez is actually one of my best friends and she is here in Seattle for a year, being a part of Earth Corps. I’m interviewing all of them about their personal and their family’s experiences and perspectives through the Guatemalan Civil War. They were all in Guatemala during the duration of the time they were alive and the war was still going on.
-INTERVIEWS-
-MARIO FLORES-
My first memory about this time were one night, my father was a professor and was teaching at night, that particular day I was like 7 year old when a bomb near a electric tower shouted the power for like an hour, I was really scared, wondering about my father, not knowing really what was going on, and not sure if he was going to come back home, at that time, teachers, professors, open minded people were at risk to be eliminated by the government. I was lucky because my entire family is from Easter Guatemala, were the war didn’t hit to much, the most affected area was western Guatemala (the high lands were the majority of the Mayan communities are).
My memory isn’t that good, because the were the worse of the war was happened, I was 4 or 5 years, I do remember once when I was in 3er grade there was a pacific demonstration in front of my school, that ended up with the police using tear gas and killing some people, we got in the basement of the school waiting for our families to pick us up.
The hardest part was that my father was a well know human right supporter, among our group of family friends, there were a few that decided to support the civil movement that at that time were call guerrilleros, (communist) a lot of friends ended up leaving the country because their lives were in danger, by the government.
Personally I think that the conditions that started the war In the first time, hasn’t changed, and even though that for my family and I we are able to walk around easily. I know that for a lot of Guatemalans in the rural areas the struggle continues. Not much difference in lifestyle from now, a few rich people and a lot of poverty , and now is pretty much the same, without the difference that now, you have a feeling of not being in war.
My experience of the war was since I was born up to when I was 15 year olds with the worse part when I was 4 to 5 years old. To be hones I thought that was going to be a normal person, again I was in a private school in Guatemala city , and wasn’t exposed to it as much as someone kid of my same age from the highlands.
I know that my father hosted guerilla fighters in his home in the city, before he get married, and also organizing school teacher to get in “Sindicatos” ( unions) Yea of cures I was worried that my father and family were going to be killed.
Can’t answer whether I think anything good came out of the war, because I think that there were a lot of lives that ended and no change was made; because in my opinion as a different of what happened in el Salvador the groups of power in this country didn’t share the power at all, and the conditions are pretty much the same.
The worst part was the not knowing when my father or family were going to be killed just because they were educated and opponents of the dictator’s governments.
-SANDRA ORDONEZ-
Well they told me that when the guerrillas arrived in San Antonio Aguas Calientes was very difficult for my parents because all the villagers had to travel to Antigua to go buy the market because there is no market in San Antonio. But it was very difficult to leave the village and one day my parents had to go to old to take my brother to the hospital because he was very sick and were out the guerrillas and the bus fell. They said they had to return to the park because they wanted to talk to all the people and my parents said they had to go to hospital, but can not leave the people returned to the park and listened to the guerrillas. They said they were in favor of the poor and only wanted food and did not say anything to the military when they reached the village after the talks that were forcing everyone to go home and could not talk to anyone and in each block two guerrillas were seeing that all people would live to their homes. They had like 5 minutes after arrived at my parents house when they heard shots in the mountains. They were scared and then when they knocked on the door but was so afraid to open the door and they were the soldiers who were coming from house to house because they thought that guerrillas were hiding in the houses and the soldiers entered the house and moved all things and asked who had said the guerrillas, but my dad told them that they had not gone to hear the talk of the guerrillas because they had a sick child, then to see that there was nothing in the house were my parents were wondering where the guerrillas were gone because the military came very fast, and my dad that the military has killed many children in the mountains because they were all farmers and had their crops and had to work but the military thought that the peasants were in that place to see all the people and tell the guerrillas that the military was getting into town and for that reason they were killed. Some children will die because Lifeguard Mountain dropped because they were killed like animals or with large sticks were beaten on the head to see that the child was dying or just cut their heads with machetes.
And they say that was very difficult life in that time because they knew who were good and that really helped the poor and also all the people could not leave their homes after 6 pm was a government order and if the military found someone on the street after 6 killed. Many people died because they had the need to go to buy something to eat in small shops and this not only happened in my town was all over the country and if they wanted go somewhere else had to carry their documents where there is no military documents and take them became part of the army, and many young people were part of the army but did not want to kill them otherwise.
-OSCAR GARCIA-
What little I remember because at that time I was about 6, 7, 8, or 9 years was very young and older people listened fearful that at some point the gerrilla or military showed up at the mountain since most of Abitante in that time were farmers and had their crops on the slopes of the volcano of water so they feared that some of these the aserles threatened to harm without giving them no food or water.
My family in this time of Gerra and lived in this town called San Pedro Las Huertas. Thank God in this part of the country not suffered much as in the departments of Quiche Totonicapan Chichicastemango and others but always my parents and other community members were very fearful.
My family not affected horribly but was left as in many Guatemalan families fear to see an armed soldier or a person because it doesn’t matter if it is good or bad person you’re going to protect, you will get hurt.
You've got a big fear and I think the time been blurred a little this fear.
One of the hard part now that I think my family is that at that time the army of Guatemala took to the streets of the town in specific areas at 7 pm or so and if they found a man who had an average age of 17 and 40 years they caught him and put it in trucks that transported them to where they were all soldiers and then trained to use arms when necessary to serves the country supposedly against guerrillas.
All this without the consent of parents or wives to people who had families, because the army does not care about this then I remember that all had to carry their identification that here in Guatemala are called identity card.
The concern in my family because my brother was bigger now 36 years, worked at the time of bread (to pan) then working at night and worked in Antigua so every night my mom was worried because people every morning the people said that a son or a father that came to the army.
Of the events I can remember one is that we were always hoping that my father returned from work because it is a farmer and was also afraid that my brother who at the time I was about 17 or 18 years it could lead the army. The lifestyle of the economic point of view I think it has changed a lot because it is having your shortage for most of the country and all the money that was spent for this war could better serve to feed many people and a very good idea. Hahaha food, but I think many people remain poor because the war he killed the parent or parents and destroyed their home or their harvest and troubled to start from scratch.
-AURELIO HERNANDEZ-
My family during the war was living in the same please where we leave now. The hard parts for my family and me was when I wanted to be free and the army said NO everything than my parents said. I remember when the army and the guerrilla was together nearby my village, was available to hear and see how they killed within them. The end of the war was important because we had a little development after that. During the war was a affair life, no free to talk about, after the war we can see and feel the development and more democracy
A normal day was to go to study and be care for the army, because the was under the streets watching youth to take and be part of the army. The war was from when I was 0 to 24 years old. At those ages I felt that my life was going to be terrible, watching many war events, people kill and people die. Everybody was trying to get the paz
Off course I did worry, and the most worry for me was the education specially for my education because on this time I was in the middle of my education process
There are many good things from the war but one of many is that now I really know why the wars happen and who is the author, or who are the people involved, because in the majorities of the wars same peoples are the responsible.
For me the worst part of the war was when I knew that one of my classmate was in the army and he was killed.
I remember many things, especially when the army caught me to be part of the army. My experience when the army caught me was a fear experience. I remember that day was Friday, I went to study like a normal day, when I leaved from the school I usually walked around 20 blocks from the school to take the bus to go back to my house at 7:00 p.m. I went with one of my best friend from the school, when we crossed the street because on the other side was the bus waiting for us, we saw the soldiers walking in our direction behind us and we started to run and tried to come in to the bus but just my friend get to be in the bus one of the soldiers caught me from my feet, my friend said to me “do not worry I am going to go to your house and let you parents know that the army caught you” because we did not have phone in our houses, then the army put me in a truck to go to the government office in Antigua Guatemala when I had to say all my personal description like name, age, occupation, etc. my house is located 5 kilometers away from Antigua and at 6:30 p.m. is the last bus from my village to Antigua you can imagine what my parents do to com to Antigua to see me because around 11:00 pm. My parents was outside of the government office just to say “son, we will do the impossible because you do not have to be in the army” then the army put me again in another big truck to go another place (military base) 20 kilometer away from Antigua Guatemala, I do not know how my parents came back home at this time 11:30 p.m. from Antigua (5 kilometers) they really love me because they did a lot things for me. So when I arrived to the military base the soldiers called us (a group of 50 youth) welcome to your house this is the man house, we did sleep that day because we was fear, at 5:00 a.m. one soldier said “wake up, is time to shower” cold water, everybody together, etc. then we went to take breakfast we make a big line because in this military base there was more youth from everywhere. During the day (Saturday) I saw many soldiers around without arms, feet, eye, etc. and some soldier said this is happened for your country, because they love their country (Guatemala) I was more fear with this….. during the night same thing, big line to take food. Next day around 2:00 p.m. the principal from the army called me and asked me “do you love your country? I said YES, do you want to serve to your country? I said YES, do you want to be part of the Army? I said NO, he asked why, I said because I am studding and I want to finished my school, and he said, you should study here and finished your school with us……. Etc. etc. but I said the type of education that I want is different and I would like to go back to my village, my school, my house, my family etc. then around 5:00 p.m. he said OK go outside but no walking, you have to go like a frog (for 5 blocks) at the entrance was my parents waiting for me without eat breakfast and lunch it was very sad, they (my parents) was making a lot things like contact the principal from my school on weekend, without phone numbers, without address of him…. Etc. I cannot believe what others things they did, because they wanted me back….
-REFLECTIONS-
1) What surprised you in these interviews?
Something that Mario told me before was that his father almost joined the guerilla which is really surprising. He remembers his father mulling over the decision and ultimately choosing to focus on his own family and taking care of his wife and children rather than trying to take care of the whole country of Guatemala. Something that he told me a long time ago was that, even ten years ago, you could still be killed for talking about the civil war. It was, and is, a very, very sensitive topic. Talking with him about it last year, when my group was in Guatemala, made him feel very uncomfortable and nervous because it was still such a fresh topic. I don’t feel like there’s anything in the United States that I fear having a conversation about and so this was an entirely new thought process for me. And it really hit home that he worries about talking about the Guatemalan Civil War due to his safety. It made the war feel so much closer. Which it is – it ended in 1996. Another incredibly surprising thing, from Aurelio’s interview, is that he was caught by the army but ended up getting away. This is such a rare occurrence that I was completely caught off guard and asked him follow up questions about his experience with that. I think the overall regular experiences and sights of the war were surprising, although somewhat expected from what I know of the Guatemalan Civil War.
2) How does what they experienced match – or differ from – what you read in the historical context?
My interviews and what I researched for the historical context definitely seems to match up. Everyone’s personal experience makes the war so much more “real” to me though. I read about all the disappearances, atrocities, killings, etc. but hearing stories from people who I know well and their experiences makes me even more sympathetic and interested in the topic. It seems like a not very well known topic but I truly enjoy learning as much as I can about it because it helps me gain a better idea of why Guatemala is the way it is.
3) If you were to expand this project, who else would be valuable to talk with? What other perspectives would you want to include?
If I was able to expand this project and had more time, I would want to talk with this Guatemalan man that I know in Seattle. He is a little bit older and was living in a Mayan village so I feel like his experience might be more intense. The issue was communication, because his English and my Spanish are both not skilled enough. He also works a lot and didn’t have time. I would also want to find someone that had a distinct role in the civil war. I think that the people I interviewed were very much so affected by the war, but they didn’t have a role in making it better or worse necessarily. I think that talking to someone in the Guerilla or talking to a CIA from the United States would be interesting. But I think the biggest problem is that the CIA tries to deny a lot of their involvement by whiting out certain government documents and such that have to do with Guatemala. So, I really doubt that someone from the CIA would talk to me.
4) What would you have wanted to do differently? Questions you should have asked, different people to interview, etc.
I don’t have any regrets that I could have controlled. I would have liked to interview in person but that just was not an option in any of the cases of the people who I interviewed.
5) In what ways do these interviews shed light on the giant worldwide topic of the Cold War?
These interviews are a personal perspective window and look into the effects of the Civil War and the giant worldwide topic of the Cold War because all these stories are a direct outcome of the communism vs. non-communism movements and rivalries going on around the world. The killings, pain, fear, and atrocities are all things that happened in Guatemala, but really, it was the rest of the world who was so concerned about communism. Mario touches briefly on the differences between the Guerilla and the government (Communist vs. non-communist), and the stories overall reflect the bigger, worldwide issue.
-HISTORICAL CONTEXT-
The United States got involved with the Guatemalan Civil war, which began in 1960 and ended in 1996, with the main goal of stopping the growth of communism in the world. It was the United States government who originally came up with a plan to stop the guerilla through the CIA and with the financial help from the United Fruit Company (Wikipedia, “Guatemalan Civil War”). The United Fruit Company was a constant support throughout the war for the Guatemalan government, siding against the Mayans and guerilla. In the 1950’s, the U.S. helped with the overthrow of the democratically elected president in response to Nicaragua’s request for assistance (Doyle, Kornbluh, “CIA and Assassinations: The Guatemala 1954 Documents”, par. 9). The Guatemalan leader had communist tendencies which caused worry in nearby countries. The United States was more than delighted to help changing Guatemala’s political direction by assisting them in taking the president out of power. The United States was committed to countering the spread of communism and sent military support. Declassified CIA documents prove that the United States was a fundamental component in organizing, funding, and equipping the 1954 coup which toppled Guatemala's democratically elected government (Doyle, “The Guatemalan Military: What the U.S. Files Reveal”, par. 6). Professor of History, Stephen G. Rabe, writes in his book The Americas, "In destroying the popularly elected government of Jacobo Arbenz Guzman (1950-1954), the United States initiated a nearly four-decade-long cycle of terror and repression.”
The Guatemalan Civil War was part of the greater Cold War. There were tensions throughout the world with communist versus non-communist; the United States was trying to stop the spread (Doyle and Osorio, “U.S. Policy in Guatemala, 1966-1996”, par. 1, 4, 5, 6, 7, 9). The civil war in Guatemala was 36 years long ("Geography and Map of Guatemala."). Guatemala was filled with enormous injustice, torture, killings, disappearances, and more that ruined the lives of young and old alike, much of which was at the United States fault (Doyle, “The Guatemalan Military: What the U.S. Files Reveal”, par. 6).
The first phase of this war, in the 1950’s and 60’s, was the government against “middle class intellectuals and students”. This group was considered meek in comparison to the Guatemalan army who had been trained by the U.S. Army Trainers and the CIA. The second phase was in the 1960’s and was when “young officers and students of Guatemala’s Military School” started the official guerilla organization. Previous to the third phase, most of the violence stayed in the countryside, however when the third phase came in the 1970’s – there was fighting all throughout Guatemala, in cities and countryside. The fourth phase, in the 1980’s and on, is what changed Guatemala forever. This was a “phase of total war” where the Mayan population was especially targeted by the Guatemalan military (Wikipedia, “Guatemalan Civil War”). There were “countless massacres of Mayans, disappearances, and extrajudicial killings.” (Blanton, “The CIA in Latin America”, par. 9). Tactics and strategy were almost exclusively led by the U.S., based in the Panama Canal Zone. United States supported the government while Cuba and other communist states supported the guerilla (Wikipedia, “Guatemalan Civil War”).
Four main left wing guerilla groups (The Guerilla Army of the Poor, The Revolutionary Organization of Armed People, the Rebel Armed Forces, and the Guatemalan Labor Party) came together to form the Guatemalan National Revolutionary Unity in 1982, during the fourth phase of the war (Wikipedia, “Guatemalan Civil War”). During the same period as the union of the main left wing groups, extreme right wing groups tortured and murdered students, professionals, and peasants suspected of involvement with the guerilla. There were brutal assaults on civilian population. Tactics and strategy were almost exclusively led by the U.S., based in the Panama Canal Zone. United States supported the government while Cuba and other communist states supported the guerilla. The definition of a proxy war is a war that results when opposing powers use third parties as substitutes for fighting each other directly. With the United States on the government side and Cuba and others supporting the rebels, it seems reasonable to say this was a cold war proxy war with Cuba and the U.S. working through other areas and means to get at each other.
The war went on and on, with leaders coming in and out of power, and most Guatemalans needing to make the choice between the guerilla and the government.
By the end of the war, 200,000 people had been killed. The Guatemalan Civil War is described in the report of the Archbishop’s Office for Human Rights. “The office attributed almost 90% of the atrocities and over 400 massacres to the Guatemalan army (and paramilitary), and less than 5% of the atrocities to the guerillas (including 16 massacres).”
In a different report in 1999, it was stated that the government was responsible for 93% of the humans rights violations committed during the war and the guerillas were responsible for 3%. 83% of the victims were Mayan.
“Victims were not only deprived of their liberty arbitrarily, but they were almost always subjected to interrogation, accompanied by torture and cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment. In the majority of cases, the detainees were disappeared or executed.”
The civilians were victims of the acts of the government more often than the guerilla itself. The guerillas goal throughout the war was to fight back against the injustices, discrimination, and lack of opportunity that the Mayan people were faced with. The government wanted complete control and to make sure that the country didn’t turn communist.
The Humans Rights Watch has described the actions by the armed forces, mostly against unarmed civilians. For example, there was the massacre of over 160 civilians by military soldiers in the village of Las Dos Erres in 1982. The abuses included “burying some alive in the village well, killing infants by slamming their heads against walls, keeping young women alive to be raped over the course of three days. This was not an isolated incident. Rather it was one of over 400 massacres documented by the truth commission – some of which, according to the commission, constituted "acts of genocide."” (Wikipedia, “Guatemalan Civil War”). By the end of the war, 200,000 people had been killed, 40,000 disappeared, and around 1,000,000 refugees ("Geography and Map of Guatemala."; Doyle, Ball, Byrne, Manuel, “Guatemalan Death Squad Dossier: Internal Military Log Reveals Fate of 183 “Disappeared””, Par. 4). The Guatemalan Civil War lasted from 1960-1996, but the effects live on in noticeable ways today. Starting in the 1980’s, Guatemala started working towards more democratic politics. Democratic elections occurred in 1995. The peace process started in 1994 and the government and the guerilla signed agreements about human rights, the resettlement of people who had been displaced, the rights of the indigenous, and more (Doyle, “The Guatemalan Military: What the U.S. Files Reveal”, par. 1, 7; Short, “The International Politics of Post-Conflict Reconstruction in Guatemala”, Page 77, 78). Both the rebel organizations and the government signed documents declaring peace and ending the 36-year war in 1996 ("Geography and Map of Guatemala."; Short, “The International Politics of Post-Conflict Reconstruction in Guatemala”, Page 86). It seems that after over 30 years, it was decided by all that there had to be a stop. This terrible war has changed Guatemala forever. People still live in fear of violence and there are people who will be traumatized throughout the rest of their lives from the atrocities they experienced during the war (Short, “The International Politics of Post-Conflict Reconstruction in Guatemala”, Page 87). The Guatemalan Civil War is something never forgotten by the people of Guatemala because of the impact it still has today.
-BIBLIOGRAPHY-
"Geography and Map of Guatemala." Geography Home Page - Geography at About.com. Web. 16 June 2010.
"Guatamala." St. John's College, University of British Columbia (UBC), Residential Graduate College. Web. 16 June 2010.
"Guatemalan Civil War." Wikipedia, the Free Encyclopedia. Web. 16 June 2010.
"Electronic Briefing Books." The George Washington University. Web. 16 June 2010.
Blanton, Tom. "Electronic Briefing Book: The CIA in Latin America." The George Washington University. Web. 16 June 2010.
Cook, Garrett W. Renewing the Maya World: Expressive Culture in a Highland Town. Austin: University of Texas, 2000. 118-121. Print.
Doyle, Kate. "The Guatemalan Military: What the U.S. Files Reveal." The George Washington University. Web. 16 June 2010.
Doyle, Kate, Patrick Ball, Hugh Byrne, and Anne Manuel. "1999/05/20." The George Washington University. Web. 16 June 2010.
Doyle, Kate, and Carlos Osorio. The George Washington University. Web. 16 June 2010.
Doyle, Kate, and Peter Kornbluh. "Guatemala '54." The George Washington University. Web. 16 June 2010.
Manz, Beatriz. Paradise in Ashes: a Guatemalan Journey of Courage, Terror, and Hope. Berkeley: University of California, 2004. 1-33. Print.
Short, Nicola. The International Politics of Post-conflict Reconstruction in Guatemala. New York: Palgrave Macmillan, 2007. 72-90. Print.
The Space Race, Harrison Linsey
The U.S. and Soviet Space Race;
Friendly scientific competition, or fierce political battle?
The race to space, although commonly associated with the Cold War bout between the United States and the Soviet Union, can be traced back even farther into history. In 1919, France, Britain, Germany, and the United States signed the treaty of Versailles (Schefter 1999). This temporarily stopped the conflict, and effectively ended World War I, however the fighting officially stopped in 1918 (historylearningsite 2000-2010). France, Britain, and the United States all wanted Germany to be weakened, and disarmed; stopping Hitler from achieving his goal of world domination. Despite these intentions, a compromise had to be attained, and this involved Germany remaining the powerful country it was. This may be considered the event that sparked the Space Race, because it allowed Germany to remain armed. Germany’s research of rocket propulsion greatly contributed to the growing arms race to come (Caidin 1963).
Thus, World War I was ended. Despite this fact, Germany’s ever-potent power led into a second world war from 1939-1945. One condition of the Treaty of Versailles was the abolishment of the long-range cannon. These deadly weapons proved too dangerous for warfare, and were therefore prohibited. This sparked the need for new means of long-range artillery weapons, and as a result, Germany began investing much time and means into rocket research (Heppenheimer 1997).
As rocket technology quickly developed from necessity, it quickly spread to surrounding European countries, and later, worldwide. The world was changing rapidly and greatly, and advancements in arms and weaponry really played a role in power. Many countries were making huge leaps in military technology, however Russia and the United States were really the forefront of a global arms race (Heppenheimer 1997). Machine guns, tanks, planes, and artillery were being improved time after time, and Capitalism was juxtaposed with Communism regularly.
Along came the Cold War between the United States and the U.S.S.R. The two countries fought a series of proxy wars in other countries. Each intervened and supported one side of a country’s civil war. Disguised as supporting another country, the real purpose of these wars was for the U.S. and U.S.S.R. to fight each other with minimal casualties of their own. In similar conduct to the proxy wars, the space race became a heated competition between the United States and U.S.S.R. As the goals became more and more intensive, some viewed this as a friendly scientific competition. The question is, was the Space Race another pseudo-proxy war? Was the purpose of the competition to battle between Democracy and Communism? Or a proxy for the arms race between the U.S.S.R. and the U.S?
As part of this project, I interviewed two of my Russian cousins, who lived in Kiev, Ukraine, throughout the span of the Space Race (1957-1975). Both, now married, remarked about the, to my surprise, friendly feeling towards the United States that was present in the Soviet media at the time. These findings greatly surprised me, as the viewpoint in the United States was surely of a more competitive nature. In addition, they commented on how this sort of scientific competition was “healthy” and “for the greater good”. They also mentioned how Sputnik, the first vessel to reach space (Soviet’s) gave the U.S.S.R. a great sense of pride. Sputnik was the first vessel to orbit the earth, and the Soviets viewed this as a nationalistic victory (Brzezinski 2007).
The story is very different in the United States, I discovered as I interviewed my mother. She described the accuracy and trust in the news that the American people had. News reporters, such as Walter Cronkite, renowned in their time, were watched and listened to every day by the American people. Many sources of media were easily accessible, in stark contrast to the Soviet Union’s. The Space Race was also viewed as a healthy competition in America, however there was an element of fear and disgust of the Soviet’s communism. Political leaders of both countries began to get involved with the struggle as well.
John F. Kennedy, president of the United States, announced the goal of a man walking on the moon. After his sudden and shocking death, Lyndon B. Johnson, Kennedy’s vice president and, after his death, the new president, dedicated large sums of money to the funding of America’s space program (Siddiqi 1974). The struggle between these two nations was beneficial to the improvements in space travel and exploration as well as advancements in military weaponry and arms. In addition, this Race to Space bears an uncanny resemblance to the pervading Cold War at the time, and its conflicts involving the United States and the U.S.S.R.
Interviews:
Lev:
Q: Where were you living from 1957-1975?
A: I was living in Kiev, Ukraine. I was working very hard at a factory that produced household radios for most of those years. This was after I had graduated college, and was expected to have a job. My parents and most of the rest of my family was also living in Kiev at the time, or neighboring towns, but all of them were in Ukraine.
Q: What did you hear of the Space Race?
A: There was a lot of news about the race with the United States. What may surprise you is that we had only one source of information; the government. Sure, we could listen to the radio, read the paper, watch television (in the later years of the Space Race), however all of what we saw and heard came directly from the government.
Q: Did many people question the validity of this news?
A: No. Not very much. Everybody understood where their news was coming from, however everybody just accepted this as normal, and thought nothing of it. We never knew anything different than this, and so it was alright. Much different than here in America.
Q: What was the general attitude about the space race, and towards the U.S.?
A: There were no feelings of anger or hate, or anything like that, really. Most of the news we heard was of the competition, and purely that. We all knew that there was a competition going on, but we were more interested in the great things that were happening. I remember when Russia won the race. When we successfully delivered the first person to space. That was a good day, everybody was happy.
Q: What about the Cold War? Did this have any relation?
A: No. The Space Race was not political for us at all. We did hear about some government people trying to make the space competition into some sort of political dispute, but it really was not. Remember, the U.S.S.R. was made up of many, many countries. I cannot speak for all of the others, but I can speak for my personal experience.
Q: Have you heard of M.A.D.?
A: Yes. I believe very strongly in mutually assured destruction. Russia and the U.S. were just trying to over power each other. Both countries kept building more powerful weapons, and we were scared for out lives. But even the space race was only part of the arms race.
Alla:
Q: Where were you living from the years 1957-1975?
A: I, like Lev who you already spoke with, lived in Kiev, Ukraine. This was a busy time for me. During the earlier of this time, I was still in college, and I was married in 1968, and we had our first son in 1969. I graduated college in ’72 and as you can see I had a lot on my plate. School, a husband, and a child were a lot to handle. When I wasn’t in college, I was working most of the time.
Q: What about your family?
A: My family was very mobile, which was odd for most people. My dad was in the Soviet military, and therefore, we had to travel wherever he went (we being Alla and her mother). For the years when I was in school, I had a very hard time. As you already know, my family moved sometimes a few times a year. Very often. I was in school, and then would immediately have to transfer to another school in another country in the Soviet Union. As you can probably imagine, this was very hard on me, as there were so many countries that were part of the former Soviet Union, each with their own schooling systems. Some countries required English, and some didn’t. I had a very hard time keeping up in general. One time, my father was sent to the Far East, still in the U.S.S.R., but very far away. During this short timeframe, I felt very lonely and isolated.
Q: What did you hear of the Space Race?
A: Surprisingly, we didn’t hear very much. There was really only one way for my family to get the news. That was through the newspaper. We didn’t have a radio, or we did, and never used it. My family was very proud when the U.S.S.R. sent the first astronaut into outer space. We always thought we were the best. We didn’t hate the United States, though. We just had fun with the competition, where the real goal was advancing medical and scientific knowledge.
Janis Traven:
Q: Where were you living and working from 1957-1975?
A: I was mostly living in Cherry Hill, NJ. Most of my family lived there as well, and it was only until college that I left. Also, I spent some time living in Atlanta for work.
Q: What did you hear of the Space Race?
A: We were very proud when the U.S. made some advancement. We really got the play-by-play from the media, and our favorite news anchor to watch and listen to was definitely Walter Cronkite. My father was a doctor, and also very interested in science. He would always marvel to me and my two brothers about how America had changed during his time. He could not believe that a man was now walking on the moon. Even more than American changed during my father’s lifetime was my great uncle Abe. When he was a boy, there were still horses and buggies driving around New York City, and he got the opportunity to see a man walk on the moon. How amazing that would be.
Q: What was the general attitude about the Space Race and the U.S.S.R.?
A: Well you must realize that I had a large part of my family living in the U.S.S.R. at the time. Although some Americans really hated the Soviets, we couldn’t really let ourselves fall into that lull. There was very little contact with our Russian cousins, however we knew they were there, and couldn’t have very hard feelings against them.
Q: What else was notable during this time period in your childhood?
A: I remember that we would have nuclear bombing drills in my classes during school. These kept us in constant fear of the Communists, and what they were capable of. We were told to hide under our desks, as if that would have helped in the slightest. This gave the opinion of the conflict between the U.S. and the U.S.S.R. Also the conflict between capitalism and communism. Overall it was a very interesting time period in my, however my family did not feel any hatred whatsoever towards the U.S.S.R. The Space Race was more healthy and productive competition than an
Reflections:
1. Alla and Lev are my second cousins, once removed. They moved to the United States from Kiev a little bit more than ten years ago, and are fluent in English, as well as Russian. As they live in Seattle, I spend quite a bit of time around them, and that definitely contributed to my comfort during the interviews. Both are amazingly kind people, and generous with their time. They seemed overjoyed to talk to me about their lives, and I learned some very interesting information. One setback, during the interviews, was their accent. Both have very heavy Russian accents when they speak, and this made it somewhat hard to understand the names of people, and things. Other than this minor road bump, the interviews went very well. My mother, of course was extremely easy to talk to, and provide many stories with interesting historical context.
2. In these interviews, the thing that surprised me the most was the attitude the Soviet Union and the United States had towards each other. The Space Race is commonly depicted as an epic fight between the forces of good and evil, however this was not the case when talking to Alla, Lev, and Janis. I specifically picked members of my family from the U.S.S.R, and the U.S. to compare opinions. Despite my expectations they both said the Space Race was a healthy competition and there were no hard feelings.
3. As previously stated, what I took away from the interviews was drastically different from what I expected to hear. From all that I have read about the Space Race, it has been played up to be an ruthless battle between Democracy and Communism; good and evil. From what I understood through the interviewing process, this was not the case. The opinions from all three people that I interviewed were those of national pride, and desire for knowledge to better mankind.
4. If I were to expand this project, there would only be a few things that I would decide to change. As all three people I interviewed are part of the same family, they might have had some reservations of their true feelings. My mom remarked that she didn’t sense any hate towards the U.S.S.R. because she had family there. To remedy this problem, I would locate and interview people who lived in the Soviet Union at the time who were not related to me. Also, I could find someone that lived in the U.S., but had no ties to the U.S.S.R.
5. 4 and 5 combined into one answer
6. These interviews really shed light on the fact that most of my book and Internet sources are extremely biased. I have read works from each side (U.S. and the U.S.S.R.), and all show a sense of superiority over the other. The conflict also became somewhat demonized, as it was played up to be a very hostile matter. Overall, these interviews changed my opinions greatly, for example, Sputnik was thought of, in the U.S.S.R., as a victory. Many books written by Americans would disagree
Friendly scientific competition, or fierce political battle?
The race to space, although commonly associated with the Cold War bout between the United States and the Soviet Union, can be traced back even farther into history. In 1919, France, Britain, Germany, and the United States signed the treaty of Versailles (Schefter 1999). This temporarily stopped the conflict, and effectively ended World War I, however the fighting officially stopped in 1918 (historylearningsite 2000-2010). France, Britain, and the United States all wanted Germany to be weakened, and disarmed; stopping Hitler from achieving his goal of world domination. Despite these intentions, a compromise had to be attained, and this involved Germany remaining the powerful country it was. This may be considered the event that sparked the Space Race, because it allowed Germany to remain armed. Germany’s research of rocket propulsion greatly contributed to the growing arms race to come (Caidin 1963).
Thus, World War I was ended. Despite this fact, Germany’s ever-potent power led into a second world war from 1939-1945. One condition of the Treaty of Versailles was the abolishment of the long-range cannon. These deadly weapons proved too dangerous for warfare, and were therefore prohibited. This sparked the need for new means of long-range artillery weapons, and as a result, Germany began investing much time and means into rocket research (Heppenheimer 1997).
As rocket technology quickly developed from necessity, it quickly spread to surrounding European countries, and later, worldwide. The world was changing rapidly and greatly, and advancements in arms and weaponry really played a role in power. Many countries were making huge leaps in military technology, however Russia and the United States were really the forefront of a global arms race (Heppenheimer 1997). Machine guns, tanks, planes, and artillery were being improved time after time, and Capitalism was juxtaposed with Communism regularly.
Along came the Cold War between the United States and the U.S.S.R. The two countries fought a series of proxy wars in other countries. Each intervened and supported one side of a country’s civil war. Disguised as supporting another country, the real purpose of these wars was for the U.S. and U.S.S.R. to fight each other with minimal casualties of their own. In similar conduct to the proxy wars, the space race became a heated competition between the United States and U.S.S.R. As the goals became more and more intensive, some viewed this as a friendly scientific competition. The question is, was the Space Race another pseudo-proxy war? Was the purpose of the competition to battle between Democracy and Communism? Or a proxy for the arms race between the U.S.S.R. and the U.S?
As part of this project, I interviewed two of my Russian cousins, who lived in Kiev, Ukraine, throughout the span of the Space Race (1957-1975). Both, now married, remarked about the, to my surprise, friendly feeling towards the United States that was present in the Soviet media at the time. These findings greatly surprised me, as the viewpoint in the United States was surely of a more competitive nature. In addition, they commented on how this sort of scientific competition was “healthy” and “for the greater good”. They also mentioned how Sputnik, the first vessel to reach space (Soviet’s) gave the U.S.S.R. a great sense of pride. Sputnik was the first vessel to orbit the earth, and the Soviets viewed this as a nationalistic victory (Brzezinski 2007).
The story is very different in the United States, I discovered as I interviewed my mother. She described the accuracy and trust in the news that the American people had. News reporters, such as Walter Cronkite, renowned in their time, were watched and listened to every day by the American people. Many sources of media were easily accessible, in stark contrast to the Soviet Union’s. The Space Race was also viewed as a healthy competition in America, however there was an element of fear and disgust of the Soviet’s communism. Political leaders of both countries began to get involved with the struggle as well.
John F. Kennedy, president of the United States, announced the goal of a man walking on the moon. After his sudden and shocking death, Lyndon B. Johnson, Kennedy’s vice president and, after his death, the new president, dedicated large sums of money to the funding of America’s space program (Siddiqi 1974). The struggle between these two nations was beneficial to the improvements in space travel and exploration as well as advancements in military weaponry and arms. In addition, this Race to Space bears an uncanny resemblance to the pervading Cold War at the time, and its conflicts involving the United States and the U.S.S.R.
Interviews:
Lev:
Q: Where were you living from 1957-1975?
A: I was living in Kiev, Ukraine. I was working very hard at a factory that produced household radios for most of those years. This was after I had graduated college, and was expected to have a job. My parents and most of the rest of my family was also living in Kiev at the time, or neighboring towns, but all of them were in Ukraine.
Q: What did you hear of the Space Race?
A: There was a lot of news about the race with the United States. What may surprise you is that we had only one source of information; the government. Sure, we could listen to the radio, read the paper, watch television (in the later years of the Space Race), however all of what we saw and heard came directly from the government.
Q: Did many people question the validity of this news?
A: No. Not very much. Everybody understood where their news was coming from, however everybody just accepted this as normal, and thought nothing of it. We never knew anything different than this, and so it was alright. Much different than here in America.
Q: What was the general attitude about the space race, and towards the U.S.?
A: There were no feelings of anger or hate, or anything like that, really. Most of the news we heard was of the competition, and purely that. We all knew that there was a competition going on, but we were more interested in the great things that were happening. I remember when Russia won the race. When we successfully delivered the first person to space. That was a good day, everybody was happy.
Q: What about the Cold War? Did this have any relation?
A: No. The Space Race was not political for us at all. We did hear about some government people trying to make the space competition into some sort of political dispute, but it really was not. Remember, the U.S.S.R. was made up of many, many countries. I cannot speak for all of the others, but I can speak for my personal experience.
Q: Have you heard of M.A.D.?
A: Yes. I believe very strongly in mutually assured destruction. Russia and the U.S. were just trying to over power each other. Both countries kept building more powerful weapons, and we were scared for out lives. But even the space race was only part of the arms race.
Alla:
Q: Where were you living from the years 1957-1975?
A: I, like Lev who you already spoke with, lived in Kiev, Ukraine. This was a busy time for me. During the earlier of this time, I was still in college, and I was married in 1968, and we had our first son in 1969. I graduated college in ’72 and as you can see I had a lot on my plate. School, a husband, and a child were a lot to handle. When I wasn’t in college, I was working most of the time.
Q: What about your family?
A: My family was very mobile, which was odd for most people. My dad was in the Soviet military, and therefore, we had to travel wherever he went (we being Alla and her mother). For the years when I was in school, I had a very hard time. As you already know, my family moved sometimes a few times a year. Very often. I was in school, and then would immediately have to transfer to another school in another country in the Soviet Union. As you can probably imagine, this was very hard on me, as there were so many countries that were part of the former Soviet Union, each with their own schooling systems. Some countries required English, and some didn’t. I had a very hard time keeping up in general. One time, my father was sent to the Far East, still in the U.S.S.R., but very far away. During this short timeframe, I felt very lonely and isolated.
Q: What did you hear of the Space Race?
A: Surprisingly, we didn’t hear very much. There was really only one way for my family to get the news. That was through the newspaper. We didn’t have a radio, or we did, and never used it. My family was very proud when the U.S.S.R. sent the first astronaut into outer space. We always thought we were the best. We didn’t hate the United States, though. We just had fun with the competition, where the real goal was advancing medical and scientific knowledge.
Janis Traven:
Q: Where were you living and working from 1957-1975?
A: I was mostly living in Cherry Hill, NJ. Most of my family lived there as well, and it was only until college that I left. Also, I spent some time living in Atlanta for work.
Q: What did you hear of the Space Race?
A: We were very proud when the U.S. made some advancement. We really got the play-by-play from the media, and our favorite news anchor to watch and listen to was definitely Walter Cronkite. My father was a doctor, and also very interested in science. He would always marvel to me and my two brothers about how America had changed during his time. He could not believe that a man was now walking on the moon. Even more than American changed during my father’s lifetime was my great uncle Abe. When he was a boy, there were still horses and buggies driving around New York City, and he got the opportunity to see a man walk on the moon. How amazing that would be.
Q: What was the general attitude about the Space Race and the U.S.S.R.?
A: Well you must realize that I had a large part of my family living in the U.S.S.R. at the time. Although some Americans really hated the Soviets, we couldn’t really let ourselves fall into that lull. There was very little contact with our Russian cousins, however we knew they were there, and couldn’t have very hard feelings against them.
Q: What else was notable during this time period in your childhood?
A: I remember that we would have nuclear bombing drills in my classes during school. These kept us in constant fear of the Communists, and what they were capable of. We were told to hide under our desks, as if that would have helped in the slightest. This gave the opinion of the conflict between the U.S. and the U.S.S.R. Also the conflict between capitalism and communism. Overall it was a very interesting time period in my, however my family did not feel any hatred whatsoever towards the U.S.S.R. The Space Race was more healthy and productive competition than an
Reflections:
1. Alla and Lev are my second cousins, once removed. They moved to the United States from Kiev a little bit more than ten years ago, and are fluent in English, as well as Russian. As they live in Seattle, I spend quite a bit of time around them, and that definitely contributed to my comfort during the interviews. Both are amazingly kind people, and generous with their time. They seemed overjoyed to talk to me about their lives, and I learned some very interesting information. One setback, during the interviews, was their accent. Both have very heavy Russian accents when they speak, and this made it somewhat hard to understand the names of people, and things. Other than this minor road bump, the interviews went very well. My mother, of course was extremely easy to talk to, and provide many stories with interesting historical context.
2. In these interviews, the thing that surprised me the most was the attitude the Soviet Union and the United States had towards each other. The Space Race is commonly depicted as an epic fight between the forces of good and evil, however this was not the case when talking to Alla, Lev, and Janis. I specifically picked members of my family from the U.S.S.R, and the U.S. to compare opinions. Despite my expectations they both said the Space Race was a healthy competition and there were no hard feelings.
3. As previously stated, what I took away from the interviews was drastically different from what I expected to hear. From all that I have read about the Space Race, it has been played up to be an ruthless battle between Democracy and Communism; good and evil. From what I understood through the interviewing process, this was not the case. The opinions from all three people that I interviewed were those of national pride, and desire for knowledge to better mankind.
4. If I were to expand this project, there would only be a few things that I would decide to change. As all three people I interviewed are part of the same family, they might have had some reservations of their true feelings. My mom remarked that she didn’t sense any hate towards the U.S.S.R. because she had family there. To remedy this problem, I would locate and interview people who lived in the Soviet Union at the time who were not related to me. Also, I could find someone that lived in the U.S., but had no ties to the U.S.S.R.
5. 4 and 5 combined into one answer
6. These interviews really shed light on the fact that most of my book and Internet sources are extremely biased. I have read works from each side (U.S. and the U.S.S.R.), and all show a sense of superiority over the other. The conflict also became somewhat demonized, as it was played up to be a very hostile matter. Overall, these interviews changed my opinions greatly, for example, Sputnik was thought of, in the U.S.S.R., as a victory. Many books written by Americans would disagree
The Rosenbergs: Olivia Gordon
My project is on how Julius and Ethel Rosenberg were prosecuted, convicted, sentenced, and executed for "conspiracy to commit espionage" by the US government. Even today, there is no agreement as to if they were actually guilty, and if so, by what extent. My interviews highlight that disagreement.
*I have four interviews total. The rest will be posted as I gather consent from my interviewees.
*I have four interviews total. The rest will be posted as I gather consent from my interviewees.
Interview with Robert Meeropol, younger son of Julius and Ethel Rosenberg; founder/Executive Director of the Rosenberg Fund for Children (www.rfc.org)
June 11, 2010
Yesterday morning, I interviewed the FBI historian, and he said that “there is no doubt that the Rosenbergs betrayed their country.” Do you have something to say to that?
Well, from my parents’ perspectives….my beliefs are based on information that has trickled out much later……my father was involved with a group of young people who were trying to help the Soviet Union. They passed industrial military information. It was during WWII, and during a war, all industry is militarized. So if someone goes into a former automobile factory that is now making tanks, and takes pictures, they are committing espionage. This is the kind of thing that Julius did – he passed nothing to do with the atomic bomb. Also, Ethel may have known about his activities, and probably approved, but she definitely wasn’t involved with any of them. This is an important distinction to draw.
Did they betray their country? It wasn’t a betrayal of country. The trial was at the height of the Cold War….Do we know for certain that they were innocent? No.
There was a brilliant physicist by the name of Theodore Alvenhal who graduated Harvard at the age of 17 and was recruited to work on the atomic bomb at Los Alamos. He did a political analysis after WWII, and concluded that the United States was holding an atomic monopoly that was very bad for the world. So, he did what he could to provide the Soviet Union with atomic information. He was definitely a spy and he was never caught.
If the enemy is fascism, and McCarthyism, and oppression, you aren’t betraying the people, you’re helping the people.
In the song my adoptive father, Abel Meeropol, wrote, “The House I Live In”, he says that “America is the people”.
What constitutes loyalty, what constitutes treason, what constitutes betrayal are very important questions to discuss.
Would you have preferred your parents to have cooperated with the FBI to spare their own lives?
No, absolutely not. It is very possible that if they had cooperated, then neither of them would have been killed. It might have made my childhood easier, but it would have been a poisoned atmosphere to grow up in. It all comes down to whether they should have resisted, and have been themselves, or should have said that they were guilty and lied and implicated other people, and would have been David and Ruth Greenglass. If they had done that, Julius would have gotten a sentence like David’s, and Ethel would have been released to take care of me and my brother.
Looking back on it, would I rather have been the child of David and Ruth Greenglass? I would much rather have been the child of Julius and Ethel Rosenberg. I am proud of the actions they took.
This doesn’t necessarily mean that I would put my children in that kind of jeopardy myself. But my parents were in different circumstances, and in their political climate, their actions made sense.
In his sentencing, Judge Kaufman said that because of what your parents did, the Soviet Union was more aggressive in North Korea, and more people died than otherwise. Do you agree with this?
Well, that statement is based on the idea that they “stole the secret of the atomic bomb”. If you look at the Greenglass sketch of the “key principal” of the atomic bomb, it isn’t clear if he really drew it, or if he drew it for the government….either way, it is clear that the sketch is not the secret of the atomic bomb. When it was released in the 60’s, scientists analyzed it and said that there is no way that the Soviet Union could have developed the atomic bomb off of it. It was an amateur, rudimentary sketch that contained very little information.
How does our legal system need to be changed to prevent this from happening to anyone else?
The legal system has rules (well, prior to September 11), that, if they were followed, would prevent that from happening to anyone. There would be nothing to critique. The problem is that the law functions within the larger political context. In the 50’s, everyone was told that there was an international communist conspiracy out to destroy us. The Constitution and the Bill of Rights took a back seat to National Security. All kinds of things happened that would have been denounced as illegal in any other political context – for example, Kaufman being is a secret communication with the prosecution. The trial was a frame-up; they were executed for a crime they didn’t commit. If you go forward to the Bush era, the same kinds of things were happening: “enhanced interrogation” (torture), Guantanamo, and the rules aren’t enforced and judges see it as their role to protect the American security.
The law enforcement needs to develop a greater respect for the Constitution, the Bill of Rights, assumption of innocence until proven guilty. These need to have real substance over the immediate demands of political context.
Interview with Dave Alman, president of the NCRRC and author of a book about the Rosenbergs
May 28, 2010
What is your affiliation with the NCRRC?
I am currently its president.
How did you first learn about the Rosenberg case?
My wife and I lived in Knickerbocker Village in lower Manhattan. We read in the NY Times of their arrest, and learned they lived in another section of Knickerbocker Village. Then my wife recalled spending several minutes with Ethel Rosenberg some months earlier when both of them were introduced in a local park to which they had taken their children.
What do you hope to gain by re-opening the Rosenberg case?
We believe, on the basis of many hundreds of Department of Justice, FBI and other documents, that the prosecution knowingly used perjured testimony and a deceitful witness list to persuade the jury to return guilty verdicts. Moreover, the Justice Department substituted an oral indictment for treason on behalf of an enemy, for the formal indictment that accused the defendants of espionage on behalf of an ally.
What, in your opinion, was done wrong with the original case?
The substitution in the courtroom of the formal indictment with the oral indictment for treason, a crime for which there was no proof whatsoever. The U.S. never went to war against the Soviet Union and, in fact, from 1941-1945, the Soviet Union was our chief military ally against the Axis Powers (Germany, Japan, Italy). There is no such crime as committing treason on behalf of an ally.
Do you believe Julius and Ethel Rosenberg were innocent? Why or why not?
My wife and initially believed that, because they were communists, they were guilty. Later, on studying the trial record, and comparing the testimony of the government witnesses with their pre-trial statements to the government, we became convinced that although Julius Rosenberg may have been guilty of non-atomic espionage, there was no tangible or credible evidence of his having passed atomic information to the Soviet Union. As for his wife Ethel, the evidence against her, we learned from government documents, was non-existent, and her indictment was purely for the purpose of compelling a false confession of atomic espionage from her husband. She was known to be innocent by the government when she was executed.
Did the recent statement made by Morton Sobell in 2008 change the answer to the previous question? Change any of your opinions about the Rosenberg case?
No, his admission confirmed our suspicions, based on government documents, that the government inflated the crime by using suborned perjury to persuade the jury that the defendants had passed atomic information to the Soviet Union.
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