The Iranian Revolution- Jasmine Ramezanzadeh

As my topic is quite self explanatory, so are the interviews. These are their thoughts and memories on the event. My point in these interviews is to hopefully share the view of Iranians who lived during the revolution: why there is not a day in their lives that the revolution does not affect them.

Abbas Milani

When did you leave Iran? Why at this time? Was it easy or hard?
I lived in Tehran and was teaching at Tehran University until then. I was not allowed to teach, I was what is called Mamnu-al-Tadris means you are forbidden from teaching and I was Mamnu-al-Ghalam, I was forbidden from publishing and I had a son who was about to become aware there was a war going on, by then he was five years old and I decided that this is no longer a place for me to stay so I left. I left from the airport, I left legally, on an invitation to come and give a talk in the United States and I never went back.

What was your opinion of the Shah’s Government?
Well it depends when you ask because I was, at the time, part of the opposition to the Shah, this was before the revolution. And then when I came out of Iran, and in fact when I, because I was in prison for a while during the Shah, I was in prison for a year as an opponent of the Shah. My opinion then was that I was a critic of the Shah but in later years I look at the day not as an ideology as a political activist but I try to look at it as a scholar, so your view completely your point of departure changes when you look at things in a non-ideological way. So my view now is very different than my view then.

When you were in Iran during the Shah’s government, and you opposed him, did you protest, or were you involved in any of these revolutionary anti-Shah events?
Yes I was, that is why I went to prison, I was considered as part of an organized opposition to him. I was at the university, a professor at the university when they arrested me and they thought that I talked about things I shouldn’t talk about and that I have contacts with people that I should not have contacts with. When demonstrations began, I shouldn’t have participated in some of them.

How did you feel when the revolution began gathering steam?
Well when it began to gather steam, I was very worried about what would happen because I had been in prison with a lot of the people who were becoming the leaders of the revolution. Six months of that year, I told you I was in prison. I was with the future leaders of the revolution: Montazeri, Rafsanjani, Talaghani and I knew that they were not afraid to deliver democracy, so I, even before the fall of the Shah, I was worried, If I had my wish, my wish would have been to Dr. Sadighi, he was a very prominent professor, and opponent of the Shah but who decided to form a cabinet and he couldn’t, my wish would have been for him to succeed, but by then the avalanche was coming and you were not part of the avalanche all you could do is get out of its way. And I was already not part of the avalanche, because I knew it to be an avalanche, I knew what was coming was not freedom, but a form of very dangerous despotism.

What did you think of Khomeini? Did your opinion of him ever change?
Well, I have read some of Khomeini’s writings, I think not too many people had and I knew that he was not what he pretended to be, and the weeks and the months before the revolution, when he was in Paris, he pretended to be a democrat, a Ghandi type, a Mandela type, but he was in fact very power hungry and he had a long to create a ferical despotism in Iran, and when he came when he had the chance, he created what he wanted, and not what he had promised.

What do you think was the role of the US in the changeover from the Shah to Khomeini? Obviously, the Shah was pro-America, but did they play the supporting role they should have played? In other words, the Shah delivered, but did America? Was there any decision to not support the Shah due to a better interest in the US economy or oil companies? In other words, was there any point where the United States supported the come-back of Khomeini?
I don’t believe that. I recently wrote a book on the Shah, and it will come out in six months, so I’ve been very much graveling with that question. I don’t think so, I don’t think they [US] created the revolution, as the Shah believes. But on November, they decided the Shah was politically too weak, he was emotionally a wreck, physically a wreck, and they decided that he can’t stay. At that time they decided that they should work to make peace with the Khomeini camp. Up to November, I don’t think they had any idea how bad the situation was, they did not, in my view, plan to get rid of the Shah, because the Shah was very good for them. On oil, he fought them very bravely, there is no doubt about that, but on the whole, he sold and bought a lot of arms, he fought against the communists, both at home and abroad, and whatever oil money he got, he eventually re-invested in the West, so it is hard to imagine, for me, why anyone in the West, or in Israel, would have any interest in getting rid of the Shah. But once the movement began to gather steam, America is after America’s interest, so they decided the Shah can’t stay anymore, so once they made that decision, then they made their pact with the opposition and contacted Khomeini, and the rest is history.

Did you see any good sides to the revolution? Did Iran benefit in any ways? I don’t think so, I think overall, Iran has been a big loser. I think if the revolution had remained true to its promise, and that is it should have been democracy, that it has remained a democracy, then Iran would be in a much different situation today. I think Iran would be far ahead of where Turkey is today. The revolution completely aborted that, it forced into exile, two three million of some of the countries- it has brought a lot of damage to the people who live inside Iran, and on the whole, I think it was not, if I had to do the calculation, I would say that Iran has been the loser, not the winner.

You said the country would be in a much different, better situation if the revolution was true to its word. Was Iran really heading towards progress before the revolution took place?
Well, it depends what you mean by progress, the problem was that the Shah was creating progress at a socio-economic level, people were living better, with more income, there was a bigger middle class, but he was not agreeing to have more democracy, and that came back to haunt him. The country was progressing in every way except democracy, and when you progress in every way, the need for democracy is doubled, it isn’t weakened, and the Shah just didn’t understand this, or understood it too late.

What was it like living in Iran with the SAVAK?
Well, the assumption about SAVAK is that it is very powerful, and I think the assumption had been more powerful than they in fact were, because we assume that in every class SAVAK entered and they were, in the late sixties, early seventies, they were very brutal, there were a lot of torture in prison, there was censorship at every level which made it very clear that SAVAK [unclear]. So they were a very prominent presence. Of course, they were fortunate that they were succeeded by this regime. So in comparison with this regime, what SAVAK did looks much less brutal police [unclear] these guys have made the prisons, made torture, made more people killed, and all of these things in numbers much larger than anything SAVAK did. But when you had to live under it, when you had to teach under it, the power and the pressure was considerable.

Any thoughts on President Ahmadinejad?
I think he is a populist, I think he is extremely bad for Iran, bad for Iran’s image, bad for Iran’s long term interest, and I think he’s done a great deal of damage to the countries reputation, to the countries rather good history of living amicably with the Jews in Iran, for example. So he has taken a country which had a very defendable record, and made it one of the most anti-Semitic countries in the world, so on the whole, he has been a disaster.

Thank you so much for taking out so much time from your busy schedule, I just have one more question and it’s just do you ever go back to Iran?
No, I cannot leave in years because the government has decided that I have worked against them and I have published things that they don’t like so it has become impossible for me to go. I can go to be more precise but I don’t think I can get out again.

If you could, would you want to go back?
Absolutely… I still dream about Iran. I would go in an instant if I thought that I could go and either live there, really, or I could go and visit. In both cases I would do it in an instant.

 
Shahram Moghadamand and His Mother

When did you leave Iran?
We left Iran 14 years ago in 1996 because my husband died. My first priority was my family, and I thought it would be better to come to the US, where my sun lived on his own. We are very family oriented people.
What was your opinion of the Shah’s Government?
The Shah’s government was good, but only for the minority of the people. Good things came from it, for example education. After a while, arrogance takes over. Before the Shah there were no problems, when the US found the Shah useless, they left him.

What did it feel like when the revolution began gathering steam?
Well, everyone thought what they were doing was for the best. Everyone was up to teeth dependent on the South. My father was a civil engineer, but after the regime changed, he worked as an appraiser for the ministry of justice.
What do you think of Khomeini?
We are not followers of Khomeini, and think that he was not qualified to be in the position he was.

Do you often go back to Iran?
Yes. We go there a lot because everyone in our family lives there. There are no worries in Tehran. Everyone respects me.
Did you see any good sides to the revolution? Did Iran benefit in any ways?
They benefitted that they are still there. It is a lawless country, so there are lots of problems. The current regime tries to make things in order. Try to take care of rural, and bring wealth to the center. Before the Shah became filthy rich, the rest of the country was poor. Now the country is very self-sufficient, in agriculture developments, for example. Whenever I go there, I can go to the café, listen to the orchestra group that plays on TV also performs for the public live and start dancing right there. I could constantly go to parties, wearing the best clothes under my cover and when I get there, I take it off. Presently, things are cooled down. In the parks, both girls and boys play together. The Green Group is more reformed. Only in the US do they exaggerated the bad things in Iran.
During the Shah, there were only two universities in the country. Now there are plenty universities, every remote village have drinking water and all the small city has many means of social comforts and even libraries. People are all educated, even the poor and everyone has electricity, even in small villages. There are also many inventors, especially in the younger generations (ages 13-20). During the Shah, this kind of thing did not exist. Even the highways and roadways were done after the revolution. A lot of good things came for the people. The subway system is one of the best deal in the world and all made by the Iranians. Here in US, some people cannot have insurance, in Iran, every individual had insurance for free. After problems faced by superpowers, Iran tried to be self-sufficient in every field. Access to nuclear energy made Iran the superpower of the Middle East. Countries didn’t buy from the US, but from Iran, thus a threat to superpowers.

What was it like living in Iran with the SAVAK?
During the SAVAK, you couldn’t even talk to someone about your problems. It was like the secret service is here. They controlled everything, which made people discontent. SAVAK was quite in control. With this regime, you can talk freely. Anyone who is the donkey, we will become the saddle, we just want to live our life. If there are no troubles, you can have a peaceful life.

What do you think of President Ahmadinejad?
He’s not bad. He is fair and does a lot of good for the country. Whatever bad things Americans want to say about him, we know he is doing good things. He is good for Iran, but maybe not the US. Everybody thinks he is stupid, but he is actually very smart. He was not from a wealthy family, which is why he wants wealth to spread to the poor first then to the wealthy. This is why there has been so much development while he’s been in the government.

What do you believe led to the downfall of the Shah?
The Shah was left behind because he was not interested in Iran, but instead oil. If the US kept Iran as an ally, they would have access to the entire Middle East. In public, they pretend not to get along (Iran and the US). Also, the Shah became useless and unstable, which the Americans realized, so they let him go.


 
Anonymous

When did you leave Iran? Why did you choose this time to leave?
I left Iran in 1972, I was an exchange student during the Shah’s regime. I was a member of an elite club of exchange students coming to the US. The selection process and examination was very big process, it was a high privilege to come. It was easier to come to America because the Shah was having troubles, so it made it easier to come. I went through a very elaborate selection. It was a prosperous time; Americans were all over living in Iran. My first job after high school was in an American Embassy in Iran. There were so many Americans in Iran, there was no sign of dislike, and they would come to my house. Also, my brother was in the US air force. I was part of the Shah’s westernization plan, to learn western ideas of the US and bring them back.

What was your opinion of the Shah’s Government?
I thought that he was kind of repressive. I didn’t like the fact that you had to look at his pictures, of his wife and son everyday at school. The White Revolution was forced a lot on the young population, and you had to read it, and I didn’t like how it was mandatory by the Shah.

What role did you play in the Revolution?
I was a student protestor. Actually I learned more about his brutality in the US; in Iran he had a lot of covers. But coming here, I heard the other stories.

What did it feel like when the revolution began gathering steam?
I was in, I used to be in a weekly contact with my family (from the US) and I had my best friend who was part of the telephone company, so he usually called once a week. He called and said he’s not going to call anymore because Khomeini was coming back. I felt like w\he was switching sides/ difficult because I was in the US, and at LSU, They decided to expel all students from the school. American students demonstrated almost daily. It was scary. I was also approached by a CIA recruiter and asked if I wanted to go back, his name was Richard Woods from the CIA office in Texas. They had approached me before but he called me and asked.
I was in Iran in 1977, electricity was going off for hours, there was signs of.. the Shah spoke on TV and talked of changes, he apologized and promised to fight corruption. He had his prime minister reprimanded.

What were you doing before the Shah fled?
I was in constant contact with my friend at the telecommunication. He was switch board operator, so I was in constant contact. He gave me information, so I could keep up with what was going on inside. I was a nervous wreck, worrying about my family. My oldest brother got out, he was safe. He left right before. My other brother was still there. I was just worrying, you know. What was going to happen? Was the military going to get involved?

Do you often go back to Iran?
Yeah, I worried during the war. Every day I thought about the war. I did everything I could to inform and help. A lot of my friends went to the war and got killed. Sometimes I would hear that one got killed. It was a very depressive times. I did the most I could to the best of my abilities. It was not a matter of religion it was about national pride, I had good friends you know and many of them went to the front and died. The only thing left of them is their names on their street or the alley they lived on. It was very sad for me to see them gone, some of them were not even religious, I passed by their houses while sometime crying but I could not face their mothers. They were hitting Iran with the Scude missiles, 10, 20, 300 a day. So I really worried. I brought my mother here in 1985, but she didn’t want to stay. She stayed with me for a while in New Orleans, and told me about a lot of them, you know. I joined the US military…I don’t want to talk anymore…

What do you think of Khomeini?
I listened to him in a small weekly religious speaking he used to give when I was little younger than you. He was for hire, people pay money and he spoke. I wasn’t impressed with him. He was an ambiguous character for me. I didn’t like his style, he was too harsh and angery.. I just didn’t know where he came from, he did those things and was exiled but I don’t know where he came from. The shah called him and his group the black demons or the dark demons. I just think he was over exaggerated and global media found him interesting because he attracted an audience specially the BBC. When he introduced to American people for the first time on special ABC news and the whole program was sponsored by Exxon. I also think he was a double-talker. He caused a lot of you know, a lot of people died. Close to one million died in the war not to mention the massive revolutionary style speedy trials of some very innocent people. A lot of my best friends I went to high school with and those from my neighborhood, my neighborhood were a big participants of the revolution, some of the initial ones. Because it was right under the palace, the name was changed to the revolutionary guards because so many of the neighborhood kids got killed It was a wealthy neighborhood, a lot of Americans lived there. It was close to an American military installation and the Gulf District Corps of American Engineers called ARMISH MAG IN Saltanat-abad. He also caused a big Diaspora, by telling people to leave if they didn’t like his ideas, which I didn’t like. As a leader you can’t just tell people to leave their birth place. More two million Iranian of the best quality left the country and with them took all the expertise not to mention the wealth, the national wealth. They almost broke the back bone of the Iranian economy. Sometimes I think to myself if he was a blessing or a …

Did you see any good sides to the revolution? Did Iran benefit at all?
Well, the things I told you with the Shah, he always had this image of no hope for the future because of the absolute monarchy is always there. It was very depressive that you saw his son, and you had no chance of dreaming of becoming the leader of your country in the future, that dream was not there imagine that. The revolution detached this umbilical card. I see it as a process towards progress, you have to pay a price in order to reach a true form of democracy, and maybe this was the process. The monarchy is gone, because it just doesn’t make sense. When I was your age, I just didn’t understand it, I wanted a presidency like they have now, so in high school you can think about becoming president. Like Ahmedinejad, he is not connected to anyone; he went to a normal school. As bad as he may look to the outside, but I see it as a sign of hope. Took Americans 200 years and a civil war and half million death you know? Also, it brought lots of self-sufficiency to Iranians, they learned to rely on themselves. More school, hospitals, they trained their own doctors. That was unheard of before, the apples and oranges came from the US. These are the good things from the revolution sort of like an evolution towards democracy. The only thing is the situation with the women, they were and still are the biggest victims who are forced to wear the head covering, which I think should be optional. I think if they did this, they would have 85% popularity, because that takes over. International image is oppression, but they are not. A lot of women don’t want to cover up, and they should only do it if they want to.

What was it like living in Iran with the SAVAK?
I was in high school and I witnessed that I was in the office next to the principle, and they were questioning him. He was a very fair principle, he was very nervous, and they asked him things about the SAVAK, and not long after that we got a new principle, who was very dictator-like, very harsh and pro government. He would tell you “I will have you expelled!” Whereas the other one was kind always attended to the needs of the students. There was a rumor that the replacement principle was a SAVAK agent. It was scary. However, at the same time three or four of my brothers friends were SAVAK agents. They told their stories when they came to my house, they were very intimidating, they drove nice cars, lived in nice houses. If you start checking on high schoolers, that is not good, to me that is a sign of weakness. That I saw, and I did not like it. I also remember another teacher taken away who said something about the regime in class, because a kid whose dad was a SAVK agent told his dad, and he got taken away. The kids were going to be SAVAK, it was like a culty, secret organization of these families. They could do what they wanted- live relaxed, and get grades for their kids. It was a very intimidating thing. At the same time though, if you knew them, they were good connections. When I was going to come to USA as a exchange student, I was getting my passport, but there were difficulties. My brother talked to his SAVAK friend and found out there was a corrupt person who was giving away passports with different names. He had my passport in his pocket. The connection got things done, like secret pass because they had a lot of privilege.

Do you think the United States played a role in the changeover from the Shah to Khomeini?
I think the US was the main factor. The shah was the best friend America ever had. US brought him back to power with operation Ajax. They were best friends, but the US betrayed them, especially president Carter who sold them out. American news media and Exxon Oil did not like the Shah and I think they definitely played a big role. They could have saved him.

What do you believe lead to the downfall of the Shah?
Basically stuff I said, it was his lack of understanding the people of Iran. He never understood them and was out of touch, grandeur and megalomaniac. His father was much more intelligent and in touch with the people. He didn’t understand the Iranian people and miscalculated. I don’t know if he was a friend of the Iranian people, maybe he knew they were going to send him out again. I just think hopelessness, and depressive when thought about, the helicopters going over. This elaborate twice year Europe trips, it was just too much. Just out of touchiness and non understanding. He was a pompous incompetent man who just liked military parades. He was like a kid who never grew up, he liked tanks and parades. He didn’t know how to manage. After all what would you expect from a man who sold out his own father?

Thoughts on President Ahmadinejad?
Despite negative, he is a very popular man who is very well liked by poor and working class, the daily people. He is very well liked because he takes care of their affairs. He doesn’t have much, he lives in a very simple house. He went to Tehran University during the shah’s regime, he was the mayor of Tehran for a while and would sweep the streets sometime by joining the street sweepers. He is very well read and has a good oratory power, he puts the speeches and argues well. He is not pretentious, and he comes from a Jewish background, I think he is a sign of hope for kids who aren’t wealthy that they can be president one day just like him. In comparison to presidents before: Banisader, Rafsanjani, both corrupt, Khatami very pretentious in his actions and concerned about his image, he wasn’t good either. I just don’t like to see a cleric with his clock as a president. He is by far the best president they have elected. What you see is what you get, he is honest. I think he is a sign of hope especially for average kids.