Vietnam and Returning Veteran PTSD, Hanna Engel

Interview One
Ron Voxmire, Unknown (60s-80s)
(Vietnam veteran and employee at VA in downtown Seattle)

My dad was a veteran from World War II, so I was stupid enough to volunteer for the army. There was something like 300 dead a week, not like the 8 or something dead we have in Iraq - it was brutal. I got to be an officer. I went to OCS - that's like officer training camp. We couldn't walk on the floor, we had to climb all over the furniture so that we wouldn't mess up the floor. And then the officers would walk in with their muddy boots and we would have to stay up all night cleaning it again. We went through all kinds of crap to survive. When I broke my leg in training, I was stationed in Maryland. I was there when I got orders to go to Vietnam.
I was in the 196 American Division.
When I got there, they asked if anyone knew any foreign languages, and I said I took some Spanish in high school. That's why they made me an advisor to the Vietnamese. The next days, I was in an infantry unit. I was in the middle of everything. I was supposed to tell the Vietnamese how to fight their own war - it was really stupid. We slept on long planks of wood in these grass huts - me and a Vietnamese family; a man, his wife, and their son. We ate what they ate - dog, rat, things that we don't eat here.
[Do you speak Vietnamese?]
No, not very much. [says a few words in Vietnamese] That means hello or something. [Laughs] I don't really remember. I don't speak much at all.
Both of my roommates were killed during the war. In my troop, there were 24 of us, and 17 died there in Vietnam. But we were all very patriotic. We loved our country.
We got no business to go over there. What right do we have to put our values on them? We're doing the same thing in Afghanistan now. But I'm an American, so if they asked me to do it again, I would. I wouldn't want to be in the infantry, but I would do it.
[What was your daily life like in Vietnam?]
Every vet will give you a different answer. I lived with the Vietnamese, I saw the Vietnamese dead all the time. Seeing them killed didn't affect me the same way it would've affected me to see my fellow American soldiers being killed. Every once in a while I would see one of my American friends, a guy I'd known and trained with for 7 or 8 months. It was sad.
War is boredom interrupted by extreme terror. Most people don't realize that. It isn't the way it looks in the movies or on TV. Sometimes you would get on a helicopter and when you landed you would have to duck and cover. It would blow up behind you and you would have to run because people would be shooting at you. You always had to be alert. It was terrifying. You'd sleep with your boots on, and then you'd get up and eat breakfast with the Vietnamese officers. Yes, the ones on our side. None of our officers turned out to be Viet Cong traitors, no. Once in a while we would have to go on watch. We would sleep in the water and mud. No one tells you you don't wear underwear because you're so dirty. You'd be going diarrhea in your uniform because it didn't make any difference. And then you would come to a river and try to clean yourself up, and then do it all over again.
[Did you see any of the guerilla combat?]
Always. That's all I saw. You see, there was the Viet Cong, and they didn't support the South Vietnamese government. But the South Vietnamese government was corrupt too. The south had lots of rice and oil. The Viet Cong wanted to unite the country. Yes, they were the communists. There was Viet Cong in the South that were fighting for the north. That's who we were fighting.
[Could you tell the civilians apart from the guerilla fighters?]
No, you couldn't. They all looked the same. We killed so many innocent people, because we just didn't know. We couldn't trust anyone because no one knew the difference. One day they'd be a friendly guy at the market and the next day they'd be shooting at you. My biggest fear when I was there was getting shot at while I was in the bathroom. Going pee was the worst. They would all crowd around like, it's the American peeing. I would be eating lunch in the market, but I would have one hand on my gun in my lap. But I loved the kids there.
At the house where I was stationed, I had this house boy, Yui. He would cook dinner and wash my clothes, kind of like a butler, and I would pay him a little bit. Being an officer you get that kind of thing. One night I woke up and he was shooting at me. He died shortly after that. Once we caught a bunch of guys from this village and we killed all of them. The next day the chief brought this box to me. It had Yui's wife's head in it. Turns out he was headed to kill me, so they had to execute his wife to release her spirit. That's what they believed.
In Iraq, the snipers keep kill books. I know this one guy, he killed over a hundred people. That really weighted on him after. Did you know the average age of the people he killed? Under ten years old. They send out their little kids with cell phones to detonate the bombs in the passing trucks. So the snipers come through, see little kids on the street, and shoot them.
[What's it like to kill somebody?]
At the time, it's kind of fun. It's kind of comical. When you shoot them, they kind of dance around for a little bit. It's when you get home that you think, What the hell did I do? It's when you get home.
[Did you come back with any symptoms of PTSD, depression, bad dreams, etc?]
Yeah, when I came back I had nightmares every night. I still have them. Being an officer, I don't have emotional problems. That's what they thought for a long time. I was the one treating the other soldiers. But I realized in 1998, two ex wives later, that I was a little screwed up. I had major issues.
[When you came back, how did people react?]
We were spit on. When we came home, private airlines flew us out. 15 hours later, you're in Oakland, California. It was bizarre. There were people screaming and protesting at the gates. They called us baby killers. One of my army friends got his arms blown off by a rocket in Vietnam. When he got off the plane, he was riding in the top stretcher in this ambulance. He saw all these little kids with McDonalds hats on. That really changed him. War changes people. How stupid are people, to not realize how war changes people? Did you know only one percent of soldiers go to combat? It's hard to accept the idea that life goes on.
I was having lunch with Jim McDermott a couple days ago, and we were talking about how people don't really understand what it is to be a veteran anymore. It's like people can't separate the man from the war.

Interview Two
Tom McBride, 57

[What was your situation during the Vietnam War?]
I wasn’t there, no. Never been to Vietnam. I was in the navy for a couple years, right around when it ended.
[Did you know anyone who was there in Vietnam?]
Yeah, a couple of my high school buddies were over there. I know one who volunteered, Brian or something about the time I enlisted in the Navy but he opted for the army, but I heard a couple were drafted. We lost touch, of course. I heard later a couple of them died. Mostly on the front, yeah. I assume some survived, but we lost touch. It was brutal over there.
[How’d you avoid the draft?]
I enlisted in the navy. I was in London, luckily for me. It was the worst for the people who were drafted. They were the ones that got sent straight to the front. Lucky for me, I wasn’t one of those people. When you’re poor, you also get sent to be killed first. My family didn’t have that much money, so I guess I was just lucky. What did I do over there? Mostly communications stuff, on the computer, I wasn’t fighting in the navy or anything. It was nice there, but people didn’t really appreciate that we were there. [laughs] Yeah, that they made that pretty clear.
[What did you hear about the war while you were in the navy or at home?]
Not much. You get kind of a weird view over there, because they’re not talking about Vietnam. We’re focused on what we’re doing, in London. But of course everyone there loves America. In the navy, yeah. But what when I was home in America, lots of headlines about deaths. It didn’t really register because I wasn’t there.
[What was your opinion about the war?]
Now or then? Then? I supported it. We all did in the navy. I mean, some people changed their minds later on, including me. Now I think it’s stupid. Unfortunate that all those people had to waste their lives, and it was pretty much for nothing. I feel like people’s opinions changed when we weren’t winning anything. It was like, what the f*** are we doing here? Yeah.
[What did you think of the veterans?]
I didn’t really have a strong opinion. A lot of people had brothers, fathers, friends or whatever, that were over there, but I didn’t. A lot of people, hippies and stuff, really hated them. Peace, love, that kinda crap.
[Can you tell me more about that?]
Yeah. They were really - there were some people who supported them and all, but a lot of times they would come home, and people would stay away from them. Veterans had kind of this reputation, like stay away, ‘cause they’re angry from the war. It was hard to relate with them for a lot of people. So many of them came back depressed, crazy. They just didn’t fit back in well. People around them wouldn’t let them forget it either. Lots of protests, yeah. You’d be driving home and there would be people on the street with signs protesting the war, yelling and stuff.


Interview Three
Ed Strasbourger, 61
Via Email

Question 1: What is your involvement with the Vietnam War? This can be people who you know who were veterans, if your work coincided with the war, etc (your involvement at WestPoint?)
No involvement at all directly. I was just in the United States at the time of the war. Some friends of mine were involved.

Question 2: If you knew anyone who was a veteran, what was their experience?
Yes.
Ken Ludovici's experience is unknown to me. Herm Marmon's experience is mostly unknown, except that he played tennis with South Vietnam's chief of staff, later vice president of South Vietnam.

Question 3: How did they change? Did they return with any form of PTSD (post traumatic stress disorder that manifests itself in the form of depression, anxiety, hostility, alcoholism, etc)?
No detectable change in Ken. Herm returned a different person. He was diagnosed with depression we grew apart after his return.

Question 4: What was your personal opinion about the Vietnam War?
All wars are bad, especially those that are lost.

Question 5: How did you feel towards the returning veterans (ex angry, sympathetic)?
I feel sorry for the response given to the guardians of our freedom. They should have been celebrated as veterans from previous wars have been regardless of the result of the war. I am frustrated that they are not separated from the war itself; many do not realize that the veterans in Vietnam were following orders, not killing innocent children and women just to do so.

Question 6: Were you involved in the hippy movement? If so what was their stance on the war?
Yes and many of my friends. We were all against the war. I participated in marches protesting the war.

Question 7: What seemed to be the public opinion towards the returning veterans?
Many vilified the returning veterans.







Interview Reflections


1.
a.) It was awkward at first, but he was very friendly. He had a very 'to the point' kind of attitude which made me a little uncomfortable; he was very honest about his experience. He didn't shy away from adding any gruesome details, which were uncomforting but made for a better and more informative interview. He didn't get overly emotional, although he seemed to often get a caught up in the events he was describing.
b.) This interview was done over the phone, which made things less personal and hence less awkward than the first interview. Also, he was the uncle of a friend and because she was with me at the time it was less awkward. His experience was less personal because he was not affected emotionally by the event, which made the interview more relaxed as well.
c.) This interview wasn’t awkward at all because it was done over the email and the person contacted was relative of another friend. Because there was nothing that personal except for some of his friends that were involved, it made it less awkward as well.

2.
a.)What really struck me in this interview was his openness, especially with his personal experience. During the interview when I was thinking of another question for him, he asked me "Don't you want to know what it was like to kill someone? Most people ask me that question." It really took me off guard, especially at the raw honesty of his response. It was striking to see that the normal experience for a soldier included so much violence.
b.) It surprised me how disconnected he was from the event. I thought everyone at that time in the United States would be significantly affected by the war but he didn't seemed to be or have very strong opinions. It struck me that a lot of people in the navy lost faith in their country as well over the war, towards the end of it. That's weird because I'm sure the Navy would like to instill faith in the army in their employees.
c.) In this interview it was surprising that he was not involved with the war at all. I was expecting that he might have had to dodge a draft but he escaped all of that.

3.
a.)His experience did match what I had read about in some ways, but was much more severe than a lot of things I had read. You would expect stories about the horrors of war to be an experience one out of many soldiers would experience, but apparently most soldiers actually in Vietnam experienced things like he had. So in that way they matched very closely. Also, the fact that they could not tell the enemy from the civilians turned out to match his testimony.
b.) In my historical context I discuss the general publics' opinion of the Vietnam war, which seemed to match with what my interviewee was describing. The negative attitudes the people had towards the war that he described may have to do with the fact that he lived in Seattle after his time in the Navy, but it also matches with general research I have done.
c.) In my historical context I discuss the differences in the personalities of veterans upon returning from the war. This was briefly confirmed in part of this interview. I also discuss how returning veterans were negatively looked upon by many people upon returning home, which this interview also confirms. Also it confirmed the point of view of the hippies at that time towards the Vietnam War.

4. If I were going to expand this project I would want to include some Vietnamese perspectives as well as some more soldiers' experiences. Also I would like to look at a perspective of someone who was a protester and hater of returning veterans to understand why they would villainize the veterans and not the government.

5.
a.) I wish I had interviewed him on what knew from his friends' experiences. Also, it would have been valuable to take a camera because he ended up showing many slides of pictures he took on one of his missions on a projector at the end of the interview. These really made his story real, especially hearing the stories behind each picture. This would have been nice to include with the interview.
b.) If I could redo my interview with him I would do it face to face. I feel that body language in an interview can tell you a lot about what a person is thinking or willing to expand on. I would have liked to go into further depth what he was doing in London and what kind of riots were happening over the Vietnam War in the United States.
c.) I wish I could have interviewed the people that he mentioned in his interview, though unfortunately they could not give me the telephone numbers of those individuals (they had been misplaced). I also wish I would have sent a couple of follow up questions because the interview was shorter than I would have liked. I could have asked him to explain more to his knowledge what kind of protesting was taking place and which were directly aimed at the returning veterans, not just the Vietnam War.

6.
a.) This interview shed light on the veterans' experience, what experiences led to PTSD. It put into perspective why they might come home depressed and angry and why the attitudes of the public upon returning home might have affected them. It also confirmed that most veterans were not treated like heroes upon returning to the United States.
b.) This interview confirmed my research in terms of the attitudes many people had about returning veterans. It confirmed why veterans might have felt alienated upon returning from Vietnam. Also, it shed some light upon how much the war impacted each person in the United States; not everyone back home was affected so heavily by the war.
c.) This interview was helpful in that it provided an opinion of the war from someone part of the hippy movement in the states during the Vietnam War. It was also helpful that he had a friend that came back with depression because that also confirms my research and the statistics I have looked at.








Hanna Engel
Mr. NK period 3
June 11, 2010
Final Essay

A Background of the Vietnam War and the Experience of Returning American Veterans
In the 1960’s after World War II, communism was spreading rapidly throughout Asia, inspiring the Red Terror and threatening the economy and ideals of the United States and European Nations who were strongly opposed to it. The Vietnam War, 1959 to 1975, was essentially a proxy war between the French, United States and Britain against China and Vietnam, instigated by the overwhelming spread of Communism and the vulnerable position of a divided nation (Hickman). This divide occurred after the end of the Japanese occupation of the country five years after the Geneva Accords, which split the country into Northern Vietnam, controlled by Ho Chi Minh, and south Vietnam which was under the control of Ngo Dinh Diem (Hickman). During the war Ho Chi Minh, the communist leader of North Vietnam controlled the Viet Cong, which were Vietnamese communist soldiers who fought against the Americans and Northern Alliance, mainly South Vietnamese who opposed Ho Chi Minh (Hickman), (History Learning). Many factors contributed to making this war a unique one in the history of the United States, primarily that it was the first major war lost by the United States. These differences and the fact that there were no boundaries, a lower average age in soldiers and increasing front line contact in the war accounted for an abnormally high percentage of returning veterans afflicted with PTSD; approximately 27% of women and 30% of men were diagnosed with PTSD at some point in their life after the Vietnam War (Cromie). Many people in Vietnam also developed PTSD (History Learning). Both soldiers and civilians who witnessed the war and were affected by the brutality were prone to developing PTSD (History Learning). However, for the purposes of this paper we will focus on the manifestation of PTSD in American Vietnam War veterans in correlation with the Vietnam War.
Most of the Vietnam War consisted of Guerrilla warfare in the jungles of South Vietnam and along the borders of Cambodia and Laos. Troops were constantly under attack and the enemy could not be identified from other Vietnamese civilians because the Viet Cong often did not wear uniforms to identify themselves (Voxmire). American soldiers would have to wade through mud and water to their necks through areas of conflict, constantly on the alert for an attack. Leaches were often a problem in these waters (Voxmire). Newer, deadlier weapons were created such as M48 tank and new and improved machine guns. Also new planes and helicopters were developed, most notably the Bell UH-1 Helicopter and the B-52 Stratofortress (PBS). The new developments in flying technology meant fewer casualties because more lives could be saved because medical attention was usually less than fifteen minutes away now that medical units could travel quickly by helicopter (Scott). However, this also meant 13,167 soldiers returning home fully disabled, whether physically of neurologically because those with highly impairing injuries were often rescued by medical teams unlike soldiers during World War II who usually died as a result of seriously impairing injuries (McGovern). There was a reported 58, 193 American Casualties as a result of the war (Hull).
The Vietnam War was very different from other wars fought by the United States up to that time. First, the average age of the soldier was nineteen, seven years younger than those soldiers who served in World War II (Scott) (Voxmire). War was much more stressful and dangerous as there were no back lines to seek refuge from the conflict and infantrymen were often exposed to this for three hundred or more days (Scott). This was significantly longer than other wars like World War II where soldiers served an average of sixty days at a time in combat (Scott). These stress-inducing conditions had a huge impact on the mental health of returning veterans who also had to deal with the immense losses of their colleagues and friends who were killed in combat. No boundaries in the Vietnam War, unlike other previous wars meant that motivating the public for the war cause was difficult because there was nothing to show for their advancements except death counts (Karnow). Also, the enemy could often not be told apart from the civilians; everyone was the enemy and none could be trusted (Scott). Because of advanced technology, there was more mobility and firepower that resulted in higher casualties for both sides than would have previously resulted without this new technology. Lastly, when Veterans returned with the war lost they were shunned by society and the government, especially because the hippy movement had just taken off, which took a large mental toll on soldiers (Scott). When soldiers returned homes many were often met by protesters who labeled them as ‘baby killers’ (Voxmire).
Because of these differences, veterans returned with a multitude of mental conflicts including depression, anxiety and PTSD. Many vets became alcoholics, drug addicted and jobless (Wright). Divorce rates surged among veteran families (Voxmire). Twenty-seven to thirty percent of returning veterans were diagnosed with PTSD upon returning home. PTSD symptoms for returning Vietnam veterans include nightmares, flashbacks, anxiety, sleep complications, apathy, rage and low motivation (Scott). They also returned with an extreme sense of guilt that was not easily evaded (Spiller). The Veterans Association was not able to deal with this new surge of mental illness and most were not treated right away. Crime rose significantly in the veteran population, a report in June of 1973 reported that thirty-two percent of county federal prison occupants were veterans, more than half of whom had been involved in direct combat. Many veterans formed their own help groups, using Marijuana as an escape from their troubles (Voxmire). Because veterans had to be able to wake at a moment’s notice, many wake throughout the night at any sound (Voxmire).
The Vietnam War has had lasting impacts on the United States and Vietnam that are still evident today. The United States was faced with a large war debt, and the government lost significant trust from the people, especially the military. A law was passed in congress in 1973 that forbade soldiers to be in direct contact for over ninety days without government approval, and that the military needed congressional approval before oversea combat could commence (Sitikoff). Veterans caused significant problems upon returning home as many took up crime, delving further into depression and despair in reaction to the negative attitudes of the public towards them. This attitude was not addressed fully until 1982 when a consensus was reached by the public that the veterans deserve recognition and respect (Sitikoff).
The Vietnamese people were also highly impacted by the Vietnam War. Between one and two million Vietnamese people died, both Northern and Southern Vietnamese, both civilians and soldiers (History Learning). Many Vietnamese veterans also suffered from PTSD and depression, similar to the returning American veterans. Some South Vietnamese, supporters of the Northern Alliance immigrated to the United States. The victory of the North meant a united communist Vietnam under Ho Chi Minh (History Learning).






























Works Cited
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History Learning. "The Vietnam War." Digital History. 2006. Web. 04 June 2010. .
Hull, Theodore J. "Statistical Information about Casualties of the Vietnam War." National Archives and Records Administration. National Archives, 1998. Web. 11 June 2010. .
Karnow, Stanley. "The War Nobody Won." Vietnam: A History. WGBH Educational Association, 1977. 32-35. Print.
McGovern, George. A Time to Heal. Washington Indochina Research Center, 1976. Print.
PBS. "American Experience | PBS | Vietnam Online." PBS. 05. Web. 04 June 2010. .
Scott, Wayne J. "PostTraumatic Stress Disorder (PTSD): An Australian Vietnam Veteran's Experience." Vietnam Veterans Association of Australia. Veterans Association, 2001. Web. 01 June 2010. .
Sitikoff, Harvard. "The Postwar Impact of Vietnam." Welcome to English « Department of English, College of LAS, University of Illinois. Oxford UP, 1999. Web. 04 June 2010. .
Spiller, Harry. Scars of Vietnam: Personal Accounts by Veterans and Their Families. Jefferson, N.C.: McFarland, 1994. Print.
Voxmire, Ron. Personal interview. 09 June 2010.
Wright, David K. War in Vietnam. Chicago: Childrens, 1989. 64-67. Print.