Vietnam War + Julia Newell

For my topic i chose the Vietnam war. I tried to get 3 very different experiences in the war. I interviewed a woman who left for Canada because she disagreed with the government, and didn't want to risk having her husband drafted, a Vietnam war Veteran, and a Vietnamese boat person. I got a feel for what it was like for Susan, who moved to Canada, and why she felt so strongly against the U.S. Government. In my interview with Charlie, the Vietnam Veteran, i got to know many aspects of his experiences on and off the battlefield, how he felt about the war, especially upon returning home, and what that was like. For my interview with Tan, the Vietnamese boat person, i got a strong impression of what it was like to be forced out of his home for a war that he didn't believe in.


Interview with: Susan Inman, American Citizen who moved to Canada

1. How old were you at the start of the Vietnam War and what were you doing?
I started thinking about the Vietnam War in high school and I remembered that I was going to the events at the University in my city (Albuquerque, N.M.). I was active in my high school student council (President) and I remembered thinking that our high school needed to have a debate. I went to our high school Principal Mr. Crumm, and asked him if this might be possible. This was around 1967, and he did not want the debate, so he put me off. He said instead of debating, the student council should have a fund raiser and buy a good sound system to have a debate. The next year I went to Swarthmore College on the east coast. It was a Quaker school- with a long history of Passivism. By then the anti-war movement was big and dynamic and I began to understand things.
One of the things that shocked me was that in the early years of the Vietnam conflict, Ho Chi Minh-approached the United States for help. However, the United States was really too frightened because he was connected to the USSR and wanted a partly socialist state. However, in the 1950’s he was not a rabid communist. I learned more about the history and the money being made by the US corporations in South Viet Nam, and realized that South Vietnam was like a puppet government and a colonial state. The North and South were at war and the Americans joined in. It felt like it was in our face every day. It was the first war that was televised. There is one iconic photo of a girl running down the road on fire from Napalm. Eventually there was a documentary about her that I know about because she is Canadian. She was badly scarred with napalm. This photograph horrified everyone. Eventually huge numbers of Americans turned against the war. We were all wondered why we were there. It was a war that should not have been happening.

1. What major voices influenced your thinking and decisions during the war?
I was part of a network of people I really liked and respected. I had always felt completely American prior to the war. As I was growing up it always seemed that issues in America seems to be getting better…civil rights etc. My grandparents had been impoverished peasants and immigrated to New York. My dad had been born in Europe but became a doctor, in “The land of opportunity”. Being part of the Vietnam and hippie era made a lot of the values seem questionable. I became alienated on many levels. I was an English major and had read lots of novels with male rogue figures going out and having adventures. This was in the beginning of feminism. I began to think about those ideas. I began to realize I needed to go explore just like these characters in the novel and I was drawn to British Columbia because I had a group of friends there. Once I got there. I liked it and wanted to stay there. I really liked Canada a lot.
Political figure-influences: Dr. Spock and people like that. Tons of people spoke out against the war and were also writing influential works. I was exposed to ongoing critical analysis. I can also say that in particular Richard Nixon influenced me because I thought he was horrible.

2. Could you tell me about your husband Peter’s draft experience?

Peter was two years ahead of me in school. At that point people could get different types of draft deferments. For a while people could avoid draft by graduate school or by jobs. Peter went to teach high school after graduation in a black school. This allowed him to be deferred. We were not married then. He interested in coming to British Columbia, as part of a communal experience. Eventually, there was the lottery and he got a good number. That meant his risk of draft was low so he was freed up to do what he wished. His college roommate got a bad number and so once he crossed the Canadian border and did not respond to draft call he was subject to prison. 100,000 Americans emigrated to Canada during the war. Not all were draft dodgers. 70,000 stayed. Many were just alienated from the American culture and the atrocity of war. Now people are saying the demonstrations that were happening were a key factor in changing our role in Vietnam. Participatory democracy.

3. Did your friends and family support your decision to move to Canada?

My friends were all part of this and so we all went together. I was alienated from my parents when I left home at 17.

4. Was it hard to get permission from the Canadian government to let you remain in the country?
It was not that hard. Given that I was not going to use my degree in English right away, to take jobs away from Canadians it helped. I was a waitress and danced…did not help get immigrant status. I arranged to get married to a Canadian so I could stay in Canada legally-the man I married before I married my current husband. Subsequently there was amnesty for everyone because they really needed people. Canada is a big country and at that time, it was under populated. A lot of the Americans who came were educated and went on to have a big impact on education, social policy and culture in Canada. For awhile Canadian Universities were trying not to hire Americans. Initially you did not have to relinquish American citizenship to be a Canadian. That changed, and my current husband had a hard time becoming Canadian. It became too politically charged to take Canadian jobs without becoming Canadian…but not initially. Originally there was a lot of support for American draft dodgers.

5. What was your connection to other conscientious objectors or to the anti-war movement? How was that connection in Canada?
Originally in college was going to the protests and marches. I was learning in college about that. Once in Canada I did not stay connected to the United States anti-war movement. Within a few years of moving to Canada, the war ended.

6. Do you feel that renouncing your American citizenship and becoming Canadian was the right thing to do? Do you have any regrets?

I did not have to renounce my citizenship. Yes, that would have been hard for me. Eventually I returned to America for a time and went to UCLA graduate school. In Canada, I became a landed immigrant (initially not a citizen and could not vote). When the laws around citizenship loosened and I could keep my citizenship, I became a dual citizen. Both of my daughters have the right to be dual citizens. My older daughter works in NY now and would not be able to do that otherwise.

7. Do you feel that there are any really essential questions that I did not ask? Or do you have anything you want to tell me?

Wonderful questions! My students (I am a junior high school drama teacher) who are immigrants came to Canada from Vietnam via camps. It was a tyrannical experience both for those who stayed in Vietnam and for those who immigrated. Learning about those things was very painful for me. Vietnam became a military regime after the Americans were expelled. Now I see that a lot of ideas about the world in my twenties were naïve. I see there is a lot of ignorance in what we were doing, but I still think it was the right thing to do in trying to end this really terrible war. It was not a war that made sense. But my rigid ideas about what happened were just really naïve. It is all kind of lumped together in my mind.


Interview with Mr. Charlie Payne, Vietnam War Veteran


1. Where are you from and how old are you?

I am 62; I am from a family that moved around a lot because my dad was in the Coast Guard. My dad finally retired in Coos Bay, Oregon, where I went to junior high and high school.

2. When did you join the armed forces?

I joined at 19 years old, in 1966. I went to the University of Oregon on a track scholarship, I was the president of the freshman class and I joined a fraternity. I had a Cheerleader girlfriend that dumped me. I had to be in college with 2.0 or got drafted – and I did not maintain a 2.0-because I was having too much fun, so I joined. I was an “enlisted” man, not drafted.

3. What branch did you get assigned?

I was assigned infantry.

4. Did joining the military disrupt your life plans?

Yeah, it really disrupted my life. My father was a child of depression, and he did not even finish the 6th grade. It was always my father’s dream that his 3 boys would go to universities. After the war I wanted to come back to the Northwest. I did finish graduate school. I went back to Portland, and went to work for a lumber company. I was sent to Vancouver. I bought a home n Deep Cove, near Whistler. I bought a home, where I was approached by a neighbor, also an American who said “are you a veteran?...What part of coming to Canada did you not get?”

5. How did you feel about Vietnam when you joined?

I was pro-war. I was a military brat. Dad was conservative Republican. I heard the call and responded.

6. Who were major political influences?

Barry Goldwater-conservative Arizona government-hawk. My father supported him as well, and then after that I supported Ronald Regan. Since then politically I have become middle of the road.

7. Where did you train?

Basic Training: Fort Lewis (now I grocery shop there). Basic. I was the honor graduate in my battalion. When you go to military you get a lot of tests. I scored really high and I was chosen for officer candidate school. The army lost my orders so I was sent to fort Benjamin Harris and I learned administrative tools. Then I was sent to Fort Benning and Officer Candidate School. Very cerebral and physical. Extreme conditioning. I became a Second lieutenant – in infantry that means you are the queen of battle, the ones up front who do the fighting. I then graduated and went to paratrooper school. Then I went to Ranger school (like navy seals). Then I went to pathfinder school in Fort Benning, Georgia, where I learned how to survive (for example, if I was stranded in bush, I could get into position for airplane rescue). Then I went to Panama, had more training and 30 days break with my family and my wife.
I remember Sgt White –calm cool collected He was the best instructor. “Following instincts and survival” and two sergeants in Ranger school who later joined me in Vietnam, Sgt. Gates and Sgt. Smith – they were career army men and had already had one tour.

8. How did you feel about the war once you arrived in Vietnam?

After I arrived in Viet Nam, I could see the war was very disorganized. Chaos. I was still happy and proud to be there …I was ready to go but the groups were poorly coordinated.
I was assigned to command the first U.S. Rangers to serve in the Highlands-the mountains. I knew before I got there I that that is what I would be doing. There were a lot of casualties –out of 220 men I served with, I lost 87 men. (This was a very emotional statement for Mr. Paine) I was wounded several times. We were all volunteers. That was over the course of 1.5 years. The standard tour of duty was 12 months. I could not leave. I could not leave so I extended my tour for 6 months. The last time was too bad and I had to be evacuated. I had to go to Japan and spend a year in a hospital.

9. What was your most memorable experience?
Some were funny and -some horrific-we were in a firefight. We ambushed a unit. We were good and cocky. Our intelligence was off and the Viet Cong group was 3 times bigger than us. We had only 6 men- their group had over 18 men. Firefights were really loud. There was lots of smoke in the air. Someone on their side fired a mortar. Shrapnel hit me –we always had a medic who stayed by me. It landed in my right testicle. I pulled my pants down and was yelling in pain. Medic had to pull the shrapnel out. My men were howling with laughter.
Other major memory was the first guy I lost. Joe Struesel who was from Detroit. 19 years old. He was the point man (7-10 yards ahead of everyone). He missed an ambush. They let him through…he turned around to come back (no one suppose to-you are suppose to keep going). He ran back. He got shot. I crawled back and I grabbed him and he died with his head in my lap. Especially think about him on Memorial Day and Veteran’s Day. (Very emotional story).
I was so wracked with guilt when I got home…I went to visit the families of some of my men who had died. Some welcomed me, and some were just polite. They did not want to re-live it.
With Joe’s family-he had given me his army ring, and I took ring to parents and flew to Detroit and took ring and Mr. Struesel wanted nothing to do with me. Now I know it was just too painful.

10. How did American troops interact with S. Vietnamese troops?

They were bad soldiers. Nepotism, if you dad had a high rank you did too. Training poor. The leaders were untrained. I had a few S. Vietnamese soldiers and I sent them home. I had one who was interpreter who was good that I trained. Mostly, I did not interact with the people. I was infantry and in the jungle most of the time. They would be known as being either friendly to US or to the North. If they were friendly to North, we had to try and convince the chieftain of the village and that was really the only interaction we had. I did not spend any time in Saigon. I did not have any respect for the U.S. brass. Even in the central highlands, I flew directly back into the army base to debrief my commanding general. I don’t interact with Vietnamese now. One of my daughters is part Vietnamese but I avoid the restaurants and stuff. Too raw for me.

11. I understand you were held captive, can you tell me about it?

We got in a firefight. We were outnumbered. They were a much bigger force. Losing you call for support (howitzers, jets, etc). The enemy knew that so they “hug your belt” so you would have to “blow yourself up”. I knew we were in big trouble. We were in a swampy area and we just dug in. I had called for jets with Napalm…and they dropped it on us. Then we got into another ambush and I was shot in leg and injured with Napalm. I was separated. As commander you have to do everything your men do or they won’t respect you. They sprung the ambush early. I just could not go anywhere and I could not get to (pre-arranged) rendezvous. I was captured and taken into N Vietnam- a 3-day hike (110 miles-hung from a pole strapped arms and legs – no food or water- they carried me). We arrived at a medium size military base. They turned me over to interrogation. They try at first to make friends with you. They would ask about your personal life…Married?…Do you want to go home?…Parents miss you?…yadda, yadda.. Then they asked about troop movements. Mission? Military intelligence. I would not talk. We were not marked as rank. I was a captain then. They shoot the leaders first.
They figured I was at least a sergeant. They had no way of knowing. I would not tell them about my mission. We did 3 types of missions:
1-blew up bridges 2-political snatches 3-poisoned water supplies. They wanted to know this and I would not tell them. Then they started torturing me. They really couldn’t hurt me. Both of my legs were broken. I have a lot of Teflon and titanium now. I was put in a small cage for 6 months and they kept me there and did ugly things to me. Even if I got out, I could not walk. My doctor and two nurses were Chinese (contributed to the “war effort”). . Ironically, I was getting care while in the cage. These Chinese medical people spent one year there--that was their tour of duty. The night that they were going home they set me free. They had food in nap sack and let me out of cage. I crawled and hobbled – and it took me 3 weeks to get back to S Vietnam. At night I navigated by the stars. Rangers never leave a man behind. I knew my men would still be looking for me. They would never have gone back without me. I knew what grid points to go back to. They were sweep grid squares when they could (via kilometers)… and it took 10 days for them to find me. I ate berries, lizards and that type of thing to survive. Unfortunately, I ate the bad kind of mushrooms. I got really sick. My own men finally found me and when they did we all cried like babies. That was the most wonderful moment. They carried me all the way to safety. Then I was transported and transferred to multiple locations for weeks and finally settled in a hospital outside Tokyo for one year. I came home in a jet that stopped in Hawaii, and that is the last time I have ever been there.

12. What was it like to see your family for the first time?

It was difficult to see my parents. I know my dad loved me but we never touched or express affections. I had bitterness that all my dad could do was shake hands. I confronted my dad at 16…with this but he never could. When I came home it was not joyous. No party. People came by …when I flew back to Memphis to see my wife. Best hug ever. At first she did not recognize me…I weighed 117 pounds (was 170 before I left). I was on crutches hobbling.

13. How did other people treat you?

I say the worst black mark in military history –was the way Vietnam vets were treated when they got home. We were spat on, people threw cow’s blood on us and called us “baby killers”. When my plane landed in San Francisco, there were demonstrators were on the tarmac, burning the American flag and throwing water balloons, filled with pig’s blood. A guy threw a balloon at me but it did not break. The guy came after it, and I was in a wheel chair and took my first steps in almost 18 months and fell on my face. Some young woman (also anti-war demonstrator) in the crowd helped me to my feet and put me in chair. She held me and whispered ‘I’m so sorry’. She burst into tears and ran off.

14. What happened when you got home?

I had to go to 4 years of college. My first wife got a PhD at Vanderbilt--She was on the faculty and they let me in “on probation”. I was so ready to study then. I went to school on the GI bill (85$ a month and tuition waver). I was invited to join the honors college- and had a triple major. Chemistry and fun stuff, comparative political theory, and early British and American rhetoric. Then I went to graduate school at the London School of Economics. Finally I returned to Oregon to build my life.

15. What problems do you have now that you attribute to having been in the war?

I have a hard time getting close to people. I see a good psychologist at the VA. The guy gave my life to me. I could not figure out why I had so much anger, or problems getting close. It was because I had so much pain from loosing so many people. It was hard to allow people in to my life again. We thought we could handle these problems by ourselves---but we cannot. I avoided all Vietnam movies. One day, living in Vancouver…I realized I needed to get a grip. So I started by seeing a movie… The Deer Hunter- “terrible mistake”…I was transfixed…it set me back 15 years and I knew I had to get help. There was no help in Canada where I was living. It took me another few years, and I joined a support group in Canada of Vietnam vets, I was the only American. The leader of the group talked me into going to the VA to get help, to see a psychologist. This VA hospital is quite famous for its PTSD clinic. This helped so much, especially seeing other soldiers. I had an opportunity to go to Miami to attend an outreach center. Met a counselor - Ed Calbo from Nicaraugua. He had been in the air force in Vietnam. At my first appointment I cried for one hour, and the next time, the same thing. This was the first time I cried for 25 years since getting back from Vietnam. That was 12 years ago. “Charlie you have a guilt issue, I am going to help you with it, you must be Jewish”. He got me started. I continued with counseling. I still go regularly…I see Scott Michael-a young guy at the VA-regularly. It has been a long journey; I have been really functional for 5-6 years. I cry a lot.

16. How has service in VN helped shape you?

I am-“organized” and I notice everything. I am totally focused. I have had leukemia twice- and survived. I am not so sure I will make it a third time. This was because of my exposure to Agent Orange. I know how lucky I am. I touch and I hug and I kiss people. I have a wonderful wife and 3 daughters ages 26, 34, and 35. They bless me. My youngest daughter (who is adopted) dances with the Kirov ballet in Russia. She is based in Seattle. They are very affectionate. They always soothe me in a crowd. Vietnam has changed my life in good and bad ways. Not so angry anymore. I am still angry with my government for the way we were treated.
Leukemia is from Agent Orange. Dioxin caused the cancer. The government denied liability for a long time. Vets took the government and Monsanto to court and Monsanto to prove the association. It took years and lots of small and large donations but we won, finally. Unfortunately, the damage from Agent Orange skips generations… I constantly worry whether my grandchildren will be ok. Also, I still cannot believe the way we were treated when we got home. Still this is the best country and I know because I travel all over the world.

17. Anything that I did not ask or that you want to say?

Julia, I am so glad that you did not ask, “How many people did you kill?” That is such a terrible and cruel question on so many levels. I just want to say a couple of things. I am just floored that anyone you age cares about Vietnam veterans. It means so much to me.

I also want to say to people that there is a lot you can do as a conscientious objector (teach, work in an administrative position, volunteer, etc). As much as this country does for us, it asks very little. The least we can do when we get called is to answer the call. If you don’t want to fight, then sign up to help in any way you can.






Interview with: Tan Chung, Vietnamese boat person

When were you born-what year and where? What was your native nationality?

I was born in 1957 in a town called Tra Vinh, in Vietnam. I am mostly Vietnamese but I had ancestors in my family, way back in the day.

Where did you spend you childhood and can you describe your family and your ancestral home?

I did not know my family very well at all because, they wanted a better life for me and to get a good education, so I was sent off to the big city of Saigon away from my family, to go to school when I was 6 years old. They also wanted me out of the house because my grandma was an alcoholic and they thought she would be a bad influence on me, and that I would grow up to be unmotivated. I packed all my belongings and went on a bus to Saigon. I lived with my dad’s friend. At first I was very excited to be living with him, but then he started to be very abusive, and would strike me all the time.

What was your education in Vietnam?

In Vietnam, I started school in the first grade at age 6, and went to school until my sophomore year in college. For college, I went to the University of Cantho, and majored in Physics. I wanted to have a good profession, so I worked very hard, I did not socialize very often, and never drank alcohol.

How old were you when the Vietnam War began (the one with the US)?

I was born in 1957, so the war had already been going on before I was born, so I grew up around the war. It became something that seemed normal in my life, I didn’t like it but it was the only thing I knew.

How did you feel about the war?

I thought it was horrible. I was always in fear that something would happen to my family back in Tra Vinh, and I could hear guns and men being killed when I tried to sleep at night because, we lived in a home closer to the jungle areas, where the killing took place. There was no point to the war. I did not want our country to become communist, but killing each other and killing U.S. soldiers would only make everything worse.

Were you in the military?

No I was not. I was very against being in the military because I believe that warfare is wrong, and I always have. It was not a war I supported and I did not want to be a part of it. There was a draft in Vietnam at the time I was still in College, and I almost got drafted. At that time, I was eligible to be drafted, but luckily, my father changed my year of birth on my birth certificate from 1957 to 1958, and that way I did not have to be drafted at the time I was still in school.

How old were you when you left Vietnam, and how did you leave?

I left Vietnam in 1965 after the fall of Saigon. This was when I was finishing my sophomore year in college. I escaped and collected enough money for a spot on a boat going out of Vietnam. I collected everything I had and sold it to be able to pay for a spot on the boat. I left very early in the morning and my friend from school helped me to get to the port safely without being caught.

What was the boat experience like?

It was terrible. Our boat was out at sea for a very long time, almost a month. There were very strong currents, and some there was very little food and water. I was very hungry most of the time and I lost a lot of weight during the trip. Thai pirates robbed us. They took all my money I had left for the destination and all of my food and water. They killed one man on our boat who refused to give up his money and raped a woman and killed her. We were not the only boat they did this to

Did your family come with you?

No we could not afford for everyone to go, it was a struggle just to pay for me to go.

Where did you move? Can you tell me about that experience?

My boat was lucky enough to make it to Malaysia. I lived there for about 10 years, and studied English there. I finally saved up enough money to buy a plane ticket to America and to study at community college, and I traveled to America. I came to Seattle in 1980, to study at Seattle Central Community College. I knew minimal English, but I picked it up as I lived in Seattle. I was very advanced in math and physics because it is the same everywhere. I worked as a cook to pay for expenses, and to save up for more education. I saved up enough and went to UW to major in engineering. It was very hard at first to be in America. I did not understand a lot of the ways of the American people and I could not help but be angry at the people for what they did to my country. It was very hard to get away from the label of being a boat person. I worked hard and became a restaurant owner, and then a real estate investor.

Have you been back to Vietnam?

Yes, two times. I went back once in 1990 and once in 2007. The first time I went back, in 1990, it was very different than in 2007. It was strictly communist and everybody was very poor and there was still a lot of damage from the war. In 2007, it was a lot richer, and less damaged. The economy in 2007 was much improved.

What is your view about the war now that it is over?

I am very glad it is over. I hated every minute of it. Almost everything that happened to me happened because of the War. I would have been able to finish college in Vietnam if I didn’t have to escape, I would have been able to start a family in my home country if it weren’t for the War. And I wouldn’t have lost contact or been separated from the ones I loved.

How do you feel about the way the US government handled the war?

I think that they were very disorganized and did not know how badly they were hurting our country even though they were fighting for South Vietnam. They ruined it for even the ones they were trying to help from communism. I think though that they were really self-interested. They did not want a better Vietnam; they just wanted to make sure no other countries went communist.